canopy fuselage and general workflow stuff

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 From:  Mazinga
1201.1 
Hi there,

I wonder if anyone might recommend a strategy for joining the attached canopy structure to the fuselage. It is very nearly as I'd like it and it Booleans together okay, but I would like to achieve a smoother fit, especially for the fore and aft parts of the canopy where it slopes to meet the fuselage. A slight fillet along the sides would be nice, too.

Being relatively new to NURBS, I have struggled somewhat with workflow issues that are rarely addressed by Rhino tutorials I've seen. If anyone knows of a good resource for "rules of thumb" when modeling with NURBS, please post a link!

For example, I understand that it is desirable to maintain valid solids as one models, but am not sure how far to go with Boolean unions--whether it is better to have many discrete solids or fewer solids and more unions. I find myself backtracking a lot to grab old solids, regardless. Also, memory use has been rocketing as my file gets more detailed, and I only have 512MB at my disposal.

Also, what is the best way to model a cockpit or cabin that you want to be visible through windows? Just subtract the desired volume or shell some part? Are windows modeled as solids, that is with some thickness?

The mesh is ultimately headed to a subd modeler for cleanup and further detailing. Do folks usually subd the MoI output? Will subdivision tear the mesh? If anyone has experience with this, I'd very much like to hear any tips you might have on your post-export workflow.

This is looking to be an excellent program. Thanks,

--M
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 From:  Mazinga
1201.2 In reply to 1201.1 
Hmm my attachment didn't take... Here.

EDITED: 17 Dec 2007 by MAZINGA

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1201.3 In reply to 1201.1 
Hi Mazinga, it looks like you are making some great progress here!

The front part of your canopy will create some problems for filleting in this case - since the front part comes down to be smooth with the fuselage, that would mean that fillets along the sides would pinch down to nothing as they approached that point. Currently MoI's filleter does not handle this kind of "totally pinched down" situation very well - it's a much more difficult area of calculation.

In general when you want to apply fillets to something it is better to make the pieces touch at a sharp angle throughout the entire length of the edge and let the filleter do all the work of rounding off everything.

In some situations like this that kind of means giving up some direct control over the shape in that particular area. Like in this case instead of drawing the profile of the fuselage exactly how you want it to finally be, you would draw it more like this (I shortened your canopy to make this a little more simple for this example):



That gives up some direct "drawn" control over the base of the profile, you need to imagine what it will look like when the fillet is in place and leave it up to the filleter to finish the bottom portion of it.

Also notice that the canopy shape that I have drawn here punches all the way through the fuselage, I have not tried to draw it such that it ends directly hugging the fuselage. This is another general tip - when different shapes are merging, often times it can be better to let surface intersection curves be created either through Booleans or Trim, rather than trying to build a second surface that hugs exactly along an existing surface. You can do that if you already have a hole or something in the first surface that you are trying to build off of, but not so much when you are modeling pieces separately and combining them with fillets.

Next I used Trim to cut these 2 pieces and keep the outer regions. You can use Booleans too, but Booleans tend to be used more often with solids instead of open surfaces. Booleans tend to incorporate automatic discarding of different pieces and when you only have open surfaces involved it may not always discard the piece that you expect. With Trim you are in full control over which pieces to keep or discard. After doing a Trim you will usually follow it with Join to glue the pieces together at their common edge.

So I selected these 2 pieces, ran Edit / Trim, then did a Right-click to do a "mutual trim" (trim each of these with the other), then switched mode to Keep and picked on the outside 2 pieces to keep them and discard the rest. Then after joining that left me with this:



The other benefit of punching the pieces through each other and then trimming them is that this topology is now much cleaner for filleting, since the bottom of the canopy is all one smooth edge where it meets the fuselage instead of having a more rectangular sharp corner. Sharp corners will create additional geometry (and are just more generally complex) when filleting. So prepping things with a smooth edge can also help for getting a successful fillet.

Then with this topology I can apply a fillet to the bottom:




I think that this general idea of purposely pushing pieces through each other and then doing booleans is probably one of the pretty foreign concepts as compared to a sub-d workflow, since you are going to be connecting things directly together more often in sub-d.

> Being relatively new to NURBS, I have struggled somewhat with workflow issues that are
> rarely addressed by Rhino tutorials I've seen. If anyone knows of a good resource for
> "rules of thumb" when modeling with NURBS, please post a link!

Don't forget to go over the MoI tutorials here: http://moi3d.com/1.0/docs/tutorials.htm - I tried to make these go over a lot of the basic NURBS type workflow there.


> For example, I understand that it is desirable to maintain valid solids as one models,
> but am not sure how far to go with Boolean unions--whether it is better to have many
> discrete solids or fewer solids and more unions.

It's difficult to give any one single rule, but especially if you want to fillet then a big goal is to have a simple topology with fewer edges and corners in it.

Many of the construction tools will tend to create a rectangular topology, just like you created for your canopy - but this is not always the proper topology for how the pieces should be finally connected together for filleting. So that's why it can help to build things punched through each other and then trimmed - cleaner final topology. There is a kind of similar situation when trying to construct an object that has a complex detailed edge in it - instead of constructing directly off of the detailed edge you generally want to build a larger rectangular sheet using something like Sweep or Loft, then trim that by the detailed edge to create your final shape.

So again it is incorporating "building extended then trimming things back" that is probably the single biggest difference in workflow as compared to subd.


> Also, memory use has been rocketing as my file gets more detailed,
> and I only have 512MB at my disposal.

Yeah, that is quite a bit on the low side, if you want to do much beyond basic shapes you can go over that fairly easily. Right now MoI generates pretty dense display meshes so that you get a nice display. You can turn this down by going to Options / View / Meshing parameters, and set "Mesh angle" to 20, and uncheck Add detail to inflections. That will cause a more coarse and jagged-looking display but it will also take up less memory. I'd really suggest upgrading your system memory though.

> Also, what is the best way to model a cockpit or cabin that you want to
> be visible through windows? Just subtract the desired volume or shell some part?

Generally I would think that these would be separate objects. I guess you would start by kind of building a new solid for the cockpit/cabin area and then create a panel - again create it larger and then intersect it with the cockpit to slice it down.


> Are windows modeled as solids, that is with some thickness?

Hmmm, not sure about this - maybe not if you're not going to do any closeups of them.


> Do folks usually subd the MoI output?

Sometimes, but I think most of the times not.


> Will subdivision tear the mesh?

No - not if it has been created as a connected skin with surfaces joined to each other at their common edges. MoI does some work during its meshing to ensure that the resulting mesh has common vertex locations along these shared edges, so if "Weld vertices along edges" is turned on at export time, you will have a completely connected mesh.

But the topology of this mesh is not always very suitable for subdivision. Probably your best bet would be to export as Quads & Triangles (n-gons probably won't be suitable since they can have concave shapes), and also use "Divide larger than" to dice up the mesh into more regular sized pieces - see here: http://moi3d.com/1.0/docs/moi_command_reference10.htm#meshdialog under the "Divide larger than" section for an example of forcing dicing up.

Hope this helps!

- Michael

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 From:  steve
1201.4 In reply to 1201.1 
I've built a lot of airplanes. The technique I usually use is to go to the side view (or occasionally the front or top views) and draw lines to define the windows. Then you can either extrude those lines so they pass through the surface and then use Trim, or you can project the curves onto the surface and Trim. I used this technique on my Messerschmitt Libelle model which you can see a few threads down from this one. Note that when viewed from the side, the lines I had to draw were just straight lines.

I normally don't bother adding any thickness to the windows. Unless you're planning on doing an extreme close-up shot, you'll never notice the difference.

Here's a B-17 I modeled in Rhino a long time ago. For most of the windows I drew the lines in the side view. For the two front windows that the pilot and copilot look through, I switched to the front view. A few of the windows needed to be drawn in the top view.



Steve S.
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 From:  Mazinga
1201.5 
Hi!

Thanks, Michael, for your detailed reply. I am getting much better results now. I have a pretty good fillet now that I will go with. I think I read that you might include a variable radius fillet in v. 2, which I think would be perfect for this sort of shape--the front of the canopy is a sort of loose "S" shape, while the sides are fairly tight. I did have a chance to try this with Rhino's VariableFilletSrf, but I ended up having to slice the shapes and mirror and was left with a visible seam and some grunge I had to trim off. So I will stick with MoI's cleaner fillet and wait for v. 2. From what you've done so far, I am sure it will exceed Rhino's commands in the same ways MoI currently does.

Thanks also to you, Steve. That's a great Flying Fortress. As you can see from my attachment, I am working on an old Buck Rogers rocket that I haven't seen modeled before. However, since I will eventually add a lot more detail than I have in my reference image, I found a ton of B-17 reference images for inspiration. So it's neat to see that plane in particular. I will be doing a ball turret for my rocketship shortly, too. :)

I think I see pilots in your B-17. Am I to understand that you just float them inside the plane and they are visible by virtue of the transparent material you applied to the window area, or did you "carve out" (Boolean or shell) your cockpit area?

Anyway, thanks a lot!
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 From:  steve
1201.6 In reply to 1201.5 
>>>I think I see pilots in your B-17. Am I to understand that you just float them inside the plane and they are visible by virtue of the transparent material you applied to the window area, or did you "carve out" (Boolean or shell) your cockpit area?


The planes fuselage is completely hollow. It's just a surface so there's no need to boolean anything. I projected the window curves onto the surface and used them to trim the surface. Don't Remove the windows when trimming.

I did some googling and found a photo of the rocket you're modeling. Using the Project Curve to Surface should work for your window.

Steve S.
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 From:  Mazinga
1201.7 
Hi Steve,

Thanks, I guess I was trying to ensure everything was solid. It will be much easier if I can just put down surfaces for some things. The rocket is from "The Misadventures of Admiral Cornplaster: Part 1 -- Voyage of the Golden Spaceship El Dorado (Series II, Strips 181 to 216)."

Formerly I couldn't find any pics at all of it online, so I got the plastic modeling book I remembered it from when I was a kid, Famous Spaceships of Fact and Fantasy. I believe there was an Estes rocketry kit of it that I made when I was young, too, but haven't seen that online yet. I rechecked and I did find this version from eBay (attached).

If you have found a similar looking one could you remember what you searched for?

See you, --M
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 From:  steve
1201.8 In reply to 1201.7 
This was the one that I found. It's similar, but not exactly the same.

http://billzeman.blogspot.com/2006/05/buck-rogers.html

For the one you posted, the side windows can be projected from the side, the front ones from the front, but for the one right on the corner you may need to rotate the ship and then project the circle. If you tried to project it from either the side or the front it would become distorted.


Steve S.
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
1201.9 In reply to 1201.8 
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
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 From:  Mazinga
1201.10 
Hi, thanks Steve and Frenchy. I will try that out and maybe post back sometime when things are more together. I am doing engines now and the probably tricky wings next. See you later, --M
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