Hi Michael thank you for the short cut key tip I hop v3 will get better

ps:

in the browser : when objetcs with color A are hidden and you assign same color A to another object it become hidden

in the propety panel: when objetcs with color A are hidden and you assign same color A to another object it stay visible

Hi lyes,

> in the browser : when objetcs with color A are hidden and
> you assign same color A to another object it become hidden
>
> in the propety panel: when objetcs with color A are hidden
> and you assign same color A to another object it stay visible

Yes, there is some extra stuff in the scene browser to make it kind of feel more like layers when working in there.

In the traditional kind of CAD layer system, when you assign an object to a hidden layer it becomes hidden since layers have their own on/off state separate from objects.

MoI doesn't quite work exactly the same as layers because in MoI only individual objects have an on/off state and not the layer (or style as it is called in MoI) itself. This is what makes it possible to have more than 1 organization view to work with objects, like both a Types section as well as a Styles and Objects section all at the same time, since each one works more by controlling a batch of object properties rather than each of these different mechanisms having its own private on/off states that would then conflict with each other. Like for example if you set all curves to be hidden under Types and then set Style=Red to be visible, that would then be 2 conflicting things applied to a red curve if the on/off properties belong to each Style and Type entry instead of it being a reflection of all the individual object properties.

But since some people are used to the layer mechanism where assigning an object to a layer makes it become hidden if the layer is hidden, MoI will kind of emulate that behavior when you are using the scene browser to assign the style.

- Michael

It will be fine if all these concepts will be on a pedagogic conceptual image (schema (?)

something like this (but for Moi of course :)

Hi Pilou, well what you are showing there is a mechanism for how different elements of a 2D image are composited together to make a final output image.

Layers in a 3D modeling program are not quite the same as that - the ordering of them is not so significant as it is for image compositing. They're used for whatever kind of model organization you want to do, not for controlling what is on top of another thing in the final combined image.

- Michael

Of course, it was Fuji diagram ;) Nothing to do with 3D ;)
http://www.fujitsu.com/emea/services/microelectronics/gdc/gdcdevices/mb86297a-carmine.html
(first image that i found on the net ;)
Just for show an example of nature of pedagogic image!

Hi Pilou, it would take a lot of work to make a big diagram and I'm not sure it would really give you any information that I can't just write down.

Basically the way things works is that objects have a 'hidden' property which can be true or false. There are also similar properties like 'locked' or 'selected' for example.

You can manipulate these properties by selecting the object and running a command like selecting an object and pushing the Edit > Hide button will set hidden = true on all the selected objects.

The scene browser gives another way to manipulate these properties by some categories so you can do it by clicking on the eye icon in the scene browser entry instead of going to the viewport and selecting things in the model. The categories can represent a collection of objects, and the different sections of the scene browser focus on different kinds of categories.

The Objects section shows entries for named objects.

The Types section shows entries for different categories of entity types, like curves or solids.

The Styles section shows entries for which style an object is assigned to.


But each of these sections work in a similar way - when you click the eye icon on any entry for example it will switch the hidden property on all the objects that belong to that category.

- Michael

Ok I will try to make a diagram as soon as i will be sure to understand totally the subject ;)

Hi Pilou, also there is a more extensive and detailed description of how the scene browser works in the help file topic for it here:
http://moi3d.com/2.0/docs/moi_command_reference11.htm#scenebrowser

- Michael

yes thx :)
I am thinking of a comparative diagram Moi / Classical CAD

Hi Pilou its true you need a definition to any object to make a diagram , and all object are related some how
ex: circle is curve ,closed curve, simple or complex color , visible or hiden , locked or unlocked , groop ....

PTC Pro/ENGINEER they do have a mix off 2d layer and 3d modling tree in one.

to my experience the simple one is better and is more flexible and fast.
I don't know what sort off load MOI Browser is taking

Hi lyes, the MoI one is designed to be flexible - the nice thing about it as compared to traditional layers is that you have several different methods that you can use in combination to organize your model, you are not only limited to just layers only.

For example with traditional layers it does not really work to have a method to show all curves in the model because there isn't any way to show an individual object by itself if the object's layer is hidden.

Similarly there isn't an easy way to show just a specific named object with just 1 click because to show an object with a traditional layer system means that the layer that the object is on must be set to be turned on, making any other things also on that layer also be turned on.

MoI's system allows you to do these different kinds of show/hide type tasks that a traditional layer system just does not allow.

Meanwhile if you want to use layers in MoI, the Styles section works very similar to them making a set of categories that controls object colors and also lets you hide and show all the objects belonging to that color slot.

This gains a lot of flexibility with having a single browser UI that allows for these various kinds of operations, like "show all curves", "select all solids", "show the object named Object1", "Lock all objects with Style=Red", ... That's a lot of flexibility and operations combined into one UI.

All the different browser item actions like Select, Hide, Show, Lock, Unlock, Isolate, make isolated selection, work across these different browser sections, so you gain the ability to do all these actions to specific named objects or object types and not only just to a layer.

- Michael

Hi Michael Moi browser is good as is, it is based on virtual grooping mecanisme like layers , and I think simple grooping and ungrooping is good to.

Hi lyes, also another way that MoI's system gives more flexibility is that the Scene Browser works as a complement to simple individual object hiding and showing by the Edit > Hide command, rather than interfering with it.

For example if you want to hide just one particular object that you see in the viewport, in MoI you can do that just by selecting the object and then clicking the Edit > Hide command - the object will be hidden and you don't have to know or care about what layer it was assigned to.

Similarly if you want to show just 1 specific object you can do that by using Ctrl+click on the Hide button which will do a "Show subset" operation. This temporarily displays all the hidden objects and lets you pick some of them, then when you right-click only the ones that you picked will get shown. Again, that works just by picking any object on the screen - you don't have to know specifically which layer the object is on you can just show it when you want.

These are also the kinds of simple operations that MoI's system enables that don't work properly in traditional layers because with traditional layers you can't work on this individual object level whenever you want, you have to show or hide an entire layer which will affect other objects that are also on that layer, instead of affecting just the object you clicked on in the viewport.

Just being able to hide and show whichever object you want without having to worry about layers is one of the big flexibility and also simplicity gains that MoI's system gives in comparison to traditional layers.

- Michael

Hi lyes,

> Hi Michael Moi browser is good as is, it is
> based on virtual grooping mecanisme like
> layers , and I think simple grooping and
> ungrooping is good to.

Yeah so right now the "Styles" section works most similar to layers, since the style assignment controls the color of the object, and also in traditional layers the layer's color controls the color of objects that are assigned to it.

But then in addition to that you can also use the Types section (for things like hide all curves, show all solids, select all points, etc...), or the Objects section (for objects with name labels assigned to them), or also just individual object hiding/showing with the Edit > Hide command.

These mechanisms all work in combination with one another since they all manipulate the same 'hidden' property that is on an object.

The difference with traditional layers is that instead of a 'hidden' property on each object the 'hidden' property instead belongs to the layer and so you can't easily target individual objects or target different kinds of categories like "show all curves" because with traditional layers if you have a layer that has both a curve and a solid on it, you can't show just the curve by itself you have to show the layer and that affects other stuff on the layer as well.

In V3 I also want to add a "group" mechanism which will be similar to object names but allow for child groups within a parent container so you will be able to make hierarchies with it.

- Michael

Michael... I do see the power in the flexability, and I like it... I do recognize that with that flexability, and a "lack of understanding" of a method to deal with it, can create some confusion to someone who is "trying to learn layer/object managment.. """""I click and EVERYTHING is now visible""""""""""""

I think in V3, a video, that demonstrates "A" layer/object managment strategy could go along way... So maybe not trying to "describe the whole concept", but a well thought out strategy and method in a simple workflow, like the "6 legged pod", that would give a "student" a base and method to incorporate into their own workflow....


I know that producing videos is a very time consuming area, and not an initial focus, but the 3 videos you have are invaluable, and can be revisited for finite techniques. And the scene browser is such a "new and powerful" part of MoI, that it may warrant this type of intoduction.....

Just a thought...

All that help to understand difference between Moi / Classical CAD layers !)

Hi Burr, from what you describe, it kind of sounds like you think it is something that you absolutely have to use? But that's not really the case, these organization tools are an optional thing you can use to help you organize more complex projects that have a lot of different objects in them.

If you have a project that does not have a whole lot of stuff in it, you can easily just use the Edit>Hide button to hide and show things and not even use the scene browser at all. One trick that can be helpful with that way is to use Ctrl+click on the Hide button if you only want to show some of the hidden objects instead of showing all hidden objects.


The scene browser stuff is something that you would use if you find yourself having difficulty managing a whole bunch of things.

Is that a problem that you are running into currently? Because if you don't really see any use for these tools or you can't decide on a particular way to organize your model, that may mean that your project is not really at a level of complexity where you really have to worry about that particular stuff.

If you are running into difficulties managing your project, could you describe some of the problems that you are running into? Or maybe you could post an example file that shows some issues you are running into? That could help me suggest an organizational strategy for your purposes.

One of the parts that comes along with MoI's flexibility in this area is that you have some choices for how you want to organize things, there isn't just a single fixed way to do it.

But if you are not having problems managing things, then it pretty much falls under "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" - you don't need to adopt any particular organization strategy at all if you are not running into organization or management problems...

- Michael

Hi Michael... I'm not having any issues with the scene browser... I was just commenting on the multiple posts I see go by regarding the use of the style system.. I note the value of the 3 tutorials you have done that, although very simplistic and generic in nature, cover many aspects of "modeling" in NURBS and MoI, and thought a video that was aimed at Style/object management would be a good target for the new system added to MoI...

It's not something I needed in particualr.

Hi Burr, yeah there are enough little shortcuts and things like that a video would probably be helpful. More videos in general I'm sure would help, I do want to make some more of them in the future.

In the meantime, the help topic for the Scene Browser does actually cover the things mentioned here, including the shortcuts for Ctrl+click on a swatch and right-click in the properties panel:
http://moi3d.com/2.0/docs/moi_command_reference11.htm#scenebrowser

A video that would cover the mechanics of the scene browser would pretty much cover that same information.

- Michael

Hi Burr,

I agree in what your saying but I agree with Michael also, I think the scene browser is so flexible that there is a number of ways that it can be used to organise the scene.

Someone coming from Autocad, Rhino or Sketchup would use it differently to some one coming from say UGS NX, Solidedge or Powershape, so it might be up to us users to post a small video tutorial on the way we use the scene browser, and as I used to say to my Apprentices, you'll get shown how to achieve the same thing five different ways by five different tradesmen, then it's up to you which method feels comfortable to you.

Cheers