DXF Angle CAM
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.1 
Hi Michael, wondering if your dxf output processing is very similar to RHINO¿



Have opportunity to test a few things tommorow in this waterjet. Interested to know if your angle tolerances etc
on polyline export settings are same. I dont have Rhino so cant compare...

Stefano

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 From:  Michael Gibson
9938.2 In reply to 9938.1 
Hi Stefano, no not really. MoI doesn't currently have an option for converting curves into a sequence of arcs, you have an option for exporting curves as either SPLINE entities (using either the exact same NURBS geometry or as "cubic splines" which can be more friendly for 2D vector illustration programs), or converted to line segments in the form of a polyline.

Another thing that's different is if you export a model with solids in it, it will generate a hidden line drawing and export that drawing to the DXF file.

Also MoI doesn't have options in the UI for controlling which AutoCAD version it is targeting, it just targets ACAD2000. But that's quite old, I would be surprised if it wasn't supported by your CAM software. If not then it could be possible to modify the version by changing the DXFExportTemplate.dxf file which is in the UI subfolder of the MoI install. When MoI does a DXF export, it reads in that template file and then fills in the entities section of it. Things like the AutoCAD version are in the header of that template file. So if you change the DXFExportTemplate.dxf to an AutoCAD R12 .dxf file then MoI would write out an R12 file. That is a super ancient version though.

MoI does not target R12 for DXF output because some entity types like ELLIPSE and maybe SPLINE (not sure) did not exist in AutoCAD R12.

- Michael
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.3 In reply to 9938.2 
Hi Michael, Some cad/cam programmes are indeed ancient. When it comes to cam a lot of factories are still totally backward/fussy in terms of what files they can accept. Will be doing some tests direct on the cam machine and report back with a bit of info.. only got about 25dxfs to test. Few moi ones in the mix, of course. Br stefano
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 From:  chrisd (CHRIS_DORDONI)
9938.4 In reply to 9938.3 
Many CAM systems do not use spline entities in gcode.
It is best practice to use arcs for all 2D cutting unless you can confirm that any spline to arc conversion performed by the service will create acceptable results.
Because there are different types and degree of spline, you will never know how the spline will be converted unless you have already tested the conversion of the service.
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.5 In reply to 9938.4 
Hi Chris, totally aware of this 'production fun'....One acad 2000 dxf file we sent out this week was a 'curve ball' to kind of start all this...just so happened was starting to explore moi3d workflow with dxfs at same time...last few jobs been done on a cnc with better software. Exported a file from a drawing package (dxf with splines) and works fine on newer system not on the other (waterjet). Amazingly fun because these machines are not that old. Today we will start to understand/document which machine software takes what flavour of dxf, this is just so we are not guessing in future or wasting time exporting lots of versions. Luckily, we have now standardised what machine(s) our work goes on. Typically or where possible we prefer to use to just polylines + arcs. Straight polylines no arcs or splines is similar to what " r12" does and we've also used a few times. Whilst approximating arcs and curves with lines is not ideal and can up the node count (a lot) seemingly works on every system and the cam bods might then use a chain or join command, to make the machine/gcode run nice.

@Michael - having r12 dxf export option in some instances might be useful,
but I will test your polyline export 1st :0)

-- Stefano

EDITED: 8 Sep 2020 by LIGHTWAVE

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 From:  Michael Gibson
9938.6 In reply to 9938.5 
Hi Stefano, if you replace the file DXFExportTemplate.dxf (make a backup copy so you can restore the original if needed) with the attached version here that should make MoI write out an R12 DXF file.

One thing to watch out for though is that MoI will still write out a SPLINE entity in the DXF file if you set "Write curves as: Splines" or "Write curves as: Cubic splines" in the DXF export options dialog. That may confuse some importers because the SPLINE entity did not exist in AutoCAD R12, it was added in later versions. So if you do this use the setting "Write curves as: Polylines" in the DXF export options dialog.

- Michael
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.7 In reply to 9938.6 
Cheers Michael, will explore it and thanks again. Stefano
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 From:  Michael Gibson
9938.8 In reply to 9938.7 
Oh also, the file DXFExportTemplate.dxf to replace is located in the UI sub-folder inside the program install folder.

- Michael
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.9 In reply to 9938.8 
Oh yeah need to dive in there soon and will clear out some/most 'custom ui' buttons after that. Need to catch up!
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.10 In reply to 9938.9 




Above: Polyline test file used and the result(s).

>> General consensus from yesterday: DXF > CAM
If you don't care about best or being best friends with the CAM bods
and/or the artwork is simple and needs no modification, then polylines are fine.
If you want to try and use polylines and the artwork has curves with lines
then use a high precision poly-line output or accept 'squared off curves'
Moi polylines or all polylines typically 'work' on all cam systems,
but test and preview 1st.

If you use ACAD then "save as" dxf format R12 is a quick legacy trick to turn
arcs or curves into lots of lines. "POLY-LINES".

>> Moi native dxf polylines export allows enough control over precision
use higher/highest precision for curves. ANGLE 1-5 passed my quick evaluations.
Michaels R12 export template can also be considered.

SPLINES:
Splines dxf export from moi or all drawing packages
can also work depends on the cam software. This is a bit
'you might get lucky' as Chris indicated.

If you save out dxf OLDER than R12 from a drawing package or acad
the geometry, precision or 'angle approximation' seems to always be bad.
NEWER than r12 and its usually splines thats unless we presume your
software let's you draw lines as lines and curves/arcs as arcs (not beziers, splines etc).

** Saving in r12 seems to 'explode'' all splines to polylines BUT
then a simple '2d circle' created in any software might become 750+ polylines.
Other commands can be used in autocad to get the desired polyline result
PEDIT, FLATTEN, JOIN, for example. You can also check precision. There is maybe some
Lisp functions out there that might convert both lines and splines to lines+arcs
but I'm not using autocad nor interested to go back to it (once used as a file converter).

Other uses for R12/polylines:
Some ECAD software still has really limited dxf importers
so R12 'polylines' is great for them.

WATERJET & GLASS CNC NOTES:

> All polyline files can work 'fine' but if the cam operator needs
to use offsets or increase or change anything then polylines are simply
a lot of work.

> On flow waterjet and "workstation 1" with FLOWPATH software spline dxfs could be imported
but sometimes not without issues making them unworkable...sometimes the shapes was totally messed
up or "auto path" function that explodes the splines and then joins them together for a 'cut path' showed
how it struggles with the spline entities [see slot image].

> On INTERMAC glass cnc systems it seemed to cope with dxf spline artwork
straight out of drawing packages - I used export as dxf ACAD 2000 from Coreldraw.
MOI Spline based dxf export would likely work as well. Eitherway, these splines are seemingly
always exploded and then joined in the cam software; for the toolpath.

When converting from splines worked in the cam import process then that circle in my test file might have been
about 150+ lines vs 750+ lines from 'hi res' polyline only.

When I used a polyline + arc dxf format the circle was just 4 arcs
and the design could be tweaked a lot easier by the cam operator if
needed.

Polylines (only lines) might be seen as reliable but not ideal
and likewise splines are a bit hit and miss; all depended on the cam
software version for each machine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE:
For a seemingly easy conversion splines>arcs, this is one option:
https://www.cadkas.com/dxf-splines-to-arcs.php

I since have contacted these people and if interested any Moi3D
users can purchase the tool here with ~10% discount.

https://order.shareit.com/cart/add?vendorid=200026514&PRODUCT[300992879]=1

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated nor have I tested this software yet,
I do not earn commissions.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACAD users can also do a load of mouse clicks and commands
like FLATTEN, REGEN etc, and try this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGR1FeRNjx4
------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDITED: 11 Sep 2020 by LIGHTWAVE

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 From:  blowlamp
9938.11 In reply to 9938.10 
I sometimes have the same problem in needing to have only lines and arcs for some of my CNC work.

I suggest you download CamBam and use its Arc Fit tool to convert hundreds of short lines into arcs, or alternatively, use the Convert To Polyline tool to alter a spline curve into a polyline of lines & arcs.

CamBam gives you 40 totally free sessions before gcode output is limited. However, I *think* you can use all the other functions for free once this time has passed and this should include the facility you are after of being able to export back out a modified DXF file.


Martin.
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.12 In reply to 9938.11 
Hi Martin, its good to know what others use for production...the machines I sometimes tinker with dxf is not required. I might call dxf "fun format". It's like a defacto standard that's not that standard.

Years ago requested a factory I was in partnership with used same design tools as it saved a load of time; had enough of pro engineer and alpha cam sending me back exploded mess. The post was also to highlite what happens on typical routes from standard packages with good ol "dxfs". You wont find R12 or polyarcs in most standard drawing tools. Also, seems machines that cost thousands and thousands are in many ways or sometimes using software flavours that are not documented well enough.

I am based on a glass factory; 3 waterjets and 5 glass cncs at my disposal. I was really curious to see what dxfs work or how well they work on the two main cam platforms. It was about 2hours work with many types of dxf files and in the end found the polyarc tolerance I like best and would work on all machines.

My setup....
I run a small prototyping company and the workshop has a few cncs, my American laser engraver works fast and easy direct from Coreldraw. I use .eps to Vectric to do gcode (mach3) on an engraving machine. Also if I need to do a print and cut job I use CADLINK software occasionally; "signlab" is the main one...i have "engravelab" running a legacy engraving machine that I turned this into a small router but not made time to test it...

Almost forgot about signlab/engravelab option at my disposal until before, seems the polyarc function is there if I ever wanted to go that route. I use some plugin toold for coreldraw and can get perfect polyarcs for any cam people. If anyone is interested or uses corel pm me will happy do a demo or convert a few files. I've not ruled out that German software as it looks like very good potential for a workflow/production idea I'm working on. It can easily work from a command line.

When I was evaluating cnc stuff years ago Cam Bam interested me and was one I remembered as "promising". Are you using any of the advanced features like that scripting?

Does it take Gerber files for isolation milling?
What machines are you running??

Kindest Regards

Stefano

Update: Vectric/Aspire also seems "in" the polyarc club
https://forum.vectric.com/viewtopic.php?t=29528
I think the cheaper cut2d product they sell likely has the same
filters.

Update: signlab confirmed polyarc export.
Not tested but very likely fine.

EDITED: 12 Sep 2020 by LIGHTWAVE

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 From:  WN
9938.13 
Michael whether the transformation of curves into a sequence of arcs will be implemented in MoI.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
9938.14 In reply to 9938.13 
Hi WN,

re:
> Michael whether the transformation of curves into a sequence of arcs will be implemented in MoI.

Yes I think so but I'm not sure exactly when. It won't be in v4.

- Michael
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 From:  WN
9938.15 In reply to 9938.14 
Well, I will continue to use workarounds as before.
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 From:  stefano (LIGHTWAVE)
9938.16 In reply to 9938.15 
More workarounds... if anyone uses Drafsight,
Complete set of edit/polyline tools. See "FIT" command.
http://help.solidworks.com/2019/english/DraftSight/html/hlpid_edit_polyedit.htm
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 From:  blowlamp
9938.17 In reply to 9938.13 
Is this something that could be done (for now) with a script?

Martin.
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 From:  bemfarmer
9938.18 
I was wondering if doing arc segments is the same as doing Biarc's?

http://www.ryanjuckett.com/programming/biarc-interpolation/
(He includes a LOT of code.)

- Brian
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
9938.19 In reply to 9938.18 
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Moi French Site My Gallery My MagicaVoxel Gallery
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 From:  Michael Gibson
9938.20 In reply to 9938.17 
Hi Martin,

re:
> Is this something that could be done (for now) with a script?

It's possible but it would be a pretty difficult script.

- Michael
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