Xtreme Network Curve & Flow on Surface All  1-20

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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.1 
Hey Guys,
I'm interested in using FLOW ON SURFACE.
I'm using NETWORK CURVE (Network in Moi) to build a surface.
1. I'm having trouble building a rectangular object enclosed on ALL SIDES with a WINDOW OPENING on one side.
2. I can build the object FRONT and then build the object BACK, however when I go to FLOW ON SURFACE - it won't let me choose BOTH SURFACES!

Is there a way to COMBINE two surfaces make with NETWORK CURVE so that when you FLOW ON SURFACE you can SELECT BOTH - or they register as ONE SURFACE?

I tried JOIN - and they appear 'joined' unless you wish to FLOW ON SURFACE, then again, they register as 2-separate surface!

Q. If you build two NETWORK CURVE surfaces - is it possible to combine them to make them ONE SURFACE?

I understand you need a closed curve at each end - with open curves between the two, however, if I make a 'topography' of curves - the result goes crazy abstract.

I'm trying to make a 'closed' rectangular shape - that I can flow a pattern onto front and back - that has a 'window' (opening) in the front only.

I really like NETWORK CURVE and am hoping to understand it better - and make it my preferred surface making tool.

Are there any advanced radical clips on how to learn to make an extreme (cool) Network Curve Surface?

Any suggestions?
Cheers,
Horace
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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.2 In reply to 8288.1 
Hi Ced, could you post a 3DM model file with the curves in it that you're doing Network with?

Join can glue 2 surfaces together into a new combined object, but the object is still composed of the original 2 surfaces whose edges now have information about both surfaces so they are clustered together. If you want a single larger surface for use with Flow, you would usually need to make the curve inputs into Flow to be made up of single curve segments, and form them out of a single Network command. Depending on what you have the Rebuild command can be useful for that: http://moi3d.com/3.0/docs/moi_command_reference10.htm#rebuild . It can be bad though to try and force a single Network to go through too many shape changes in one single go though, that tends to make things hard to control.

If you are trying to make a complex semi blobby shape all in one single go with Network, it could be possible that a polygon modeling program would be better suited for what you're doing rather than a structured CAD program like MoI. But I'd be able to give better advice if I could see the geometry looking at your 3DM file.

- Michael
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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.3 
Michael - it's somebody else's prototype 'patented' design, which I'm hired to turn into... something (so I'm a bit anxious about posting it) - task is to work my magic with 'texture', and my desire was to 'flow on surface' front, back & sides. It has ONE OPENING in the front, and the rest of the object, for all practical purposes - are closed. It may be better visually to use 'loft' or some other way to create one complete surface to flow onto, rather than 'Network Curves' - however, I really like that command.

I nearly went blind drawing a crisp outline - and was looking for SMOOTH or FAIR to take out the minuscule unevenness with the points, or with the curve itself - to 'smooth' it and couldn't find it, even with the myriad commands I have stocked up from scrounging the forum for custom scripts & shortcuts.

That's exactly the problem is the 'complexity' which would be reduced (I think) by if one were to be able to 'smooth' the outline (curve), or by using a command such as 'fair'. However, I don't see those commands available for Moi3d.

Attached most of the 'extra' commands I've scrounged off of this forum and from the websites of the proletarians, however, I was forced to 'smooth' and 'fair' elsewhere.

The other command which would be useful - would be one that found disconnected points - in some cases ruining a 'loft' if there are 2-points which are a 'nanosecond' apart - it screws up everything. If one could search for points that are apart by 'x' distance - then that would help take the 'kinks' out of a loft in progress - ha-ha!

Apart from that - Moi3d is a breeze to work in compared to any other program I'm familiar using - without mentioning any names - to protect the innocent. Albeit, I do like having all those 'extra' commands in my toolBox!

Attached the commands - meanwhile I'm going to see if I can find an advanced xtreme NETWORK LOFTING clip online - see if that exists - let you know - let's see if there's a psycho network curve clip around - if not - perhaps I'll make one!
Horatio


EDITED: 2 Feb by FRACTIONALIST


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 From:  bemfarmer
8288.4 
Hi Horace,
It is difficult to understand what you are doing.
Without violating disclosure, perhaps you could post an example .3dm, with say a shelled rectangular box,
with a door in the front, made with Boolean delete of a smaller box.
And an object to flow, maybe a star?

- Brian
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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.5 In reply to 8288.3 
Hi Ced, unfortunately it's very difficult to understand what you're trying to do just with a written description. Maybe you could make an example that's only very roughly similar to your real one so you could post it. Or you can also send me a file privately through private message here on the forum or by e-mailing it to me at moi@moi3d.com

> Attached most of the 'extra' commands I've scrounged off of this forum and from the
> websites of the proletarians, however, I was forced to 'smooth' and 'fair' elsewhere.

Sorry no there currently isn't anything available for 'smooth' or 'fair' - right now the control point structure of a curve is not accessible to scripts so it's not something that is easy to script. Also it's difficult to make smooth and fair commands that work on any generic curve rather than ones that have uniform knot spacing.

You might want to use Loft with the Loft style = "loose" option for what you are describing rather than Network, it can often make a more smooth blobby type thing easier. Andrei made some tutorials which I think he has for sale now, some demos here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6058.1

and I think information on his tutorial pack here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=7668.12

Also see some examples of the loose loft method here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6082.10
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6082.8

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.6 In reply to 8288.3 
For making something with one end open and the other closed, using a 'loose' loft, you'd put a point at the end in the same plane as the last profile like this:



Then run Construct > Loft and use the option for "Loft style = Loose":



If you bunch up some profiles near the end it will tighten up the curvature there:



- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.7 In reply to 8288.3 
But also a surface that collapses down to a point like that will have an impact on Flow as well, the deformation will shrink down as they approach the point just like the surface shrinks down in width as it approaches it. For applying a texture all over you could be better off doing it as texturing in a rendering program rather than using Flow in MoI.

- Michael
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 From:  OSTexo
8288.8 
Hello,

If the patent has been issued it's public record, except in rare instances (e.g. national security). Just provide the patent number and issuing authority so the drawings can be examined.
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Message 8288.9 deleted 4 Feb by FRACTIONALIST

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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.10 
Alright - the best way (I think), is to make a front & back closed curve, with a middle curve that's larger/wider in order to produce a ROUNDED edge in the final stage.

I have a rectangle on the top, followed by a wider 'odd' shaped closed curve below it, followed by a smaller one below that -

Then LOFT.

Set the loft to a high number in order to create a tight wire frame.

Remove the loft SURFACE so it looks like a WIRE FRAME EXTRACT.

Remove the middle curve (the larges one in the middle - you've already got the curve you wanted - it's served it's purpose).

Now you have a closed curve at each end of the ribs which the LOFT created -

Select the TOP & BOTTOM curve - Select the side curves (ribs), and create a NETWORK CURVE surface.

That will result in a nice curved wrap-around surface for the purpose of FLOW ON SURFACE, and the FRONT & BACK are open.

We want the front to be open, however, we want the back to be closed!

How would that be possible?

I can't post the design -

My goal is to have ONE WHOLE NETWORK SURFACE for the purpose of FLOW ON SURFACE in which there is only ONE HOLE, (at the top) and everything else is wrapped & closed - the difficulty is you can't JOIN two Network Surfaces and make them into one -

I want to be able to FLOW on SURFACE as though it were one continuous surface for the purpose of 3d texture - that would continously wrap all around the object, including the edges on the front - up to the HOLE - and down around the curved sides and continue to cover the entire bottom of the object - where, there is now - a hole - is it possible to make a CURVE NETWORK that has only ONE HOLE (which happens to be at the top)?
Cheers,
Cash Me Outside

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 From:  bemfarmer
8288.11 In reply to 8288.10 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_mapping

Which program will do the texturing?

- B
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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.12 In reply to 8288.10 
Hi Ced,

re:
> We want the front to be open, however, we want the back to be closed!
>
> How would that be possible?

It's very difficult to clearly understand what you're describing, it would help a lot if you would post a 3DM model file, even if it's not your exact design it would be a lot clearer if you made something of just generally similar structure to it without any specific details in it.


> My goal is to have ONE WHOLE NETWORK SURFACE for the purpose of FLOW ON
> SURFACE in which there is only ONE HOLE, (at the top) and everything else is
> wrapped & closed -

You can make a network surface that has a hole in the top by having one direction with open curves that touch at a bottom point, and the other direction using closed curves, like this:



But MoI may not be the right tool for your texturing job - usually to make a single NURBS surface that is closed one one end involves having the surface collapse down to a single point on that end, that's like the bottom point in the above image where the 4 vertical curves touch each other.

When using the Flow tool, the deformation will follow the structure of the surface and so where the surface's control points shrink down and collapse towards each other the deformed objects will similarly shrink down. If that is not what you need to do, then probably a CAD program like MoI is not going to be the right tool for your particular job at hand. Something that's focused more on applying organic textures on to polygon models would likely be a better fit, stuff like Modo, Cinema4D, etc...

- Michael
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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.13 
It's texture - and it's not texture - it's extreme mold making with 'fresco' style relief - be that as it may - here's the general idea; need the top inner frame OPEN, and the sides CURVED, and the BACK (bottom of the object) CLOSED. The case is hopefully a NETWORK CURVE so I have all the FLOW ability control - adjusting the size of the 'little boxes on the surface', and the case SURFACE comes up to and connects to the TOP FRAME outline... so the top frame INNER AREA is OPEN.

I've been struggling with this for a month! The answer would be to JOIN a NETWORK CURVED SURFACE one to another - that way I could make the sections UNIFORM and simply JOIN them to make ONE SURFACE for the purpose to NETWORK a surface.

What works is LOFT, to some extent, and then EXTRACT WIREFRAME, and then use that wire frame to NETWORK ontop of - which will work - however, I still don't get a 'soap dish' closed all the way around with the exception of the 'hole' opening at the top inside the top frame! Aaaaaaagh!

E.g., see attachment:


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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.14 In reply to 8288.13 
Hi Ced, with a semi-"blobby" type shape like that you would probably be better off in a sub-d modeling program rather than in a CAD program.

You're pretty much guaranteed that you won't be able to make that out of a single surface if you try to directly surface to that type of top opening because of the sharp corners in the top shape. You can only make a single surface in MoI where the surface is smooth throughout it, any type of sharp corner in a profile is going to get split up into multiple surfaces at the corner spots.

Sometimes though a mix of sharp onto smooth can be done better by building an bigger initial all-smooth piece and then cutting out the sharp outline using Trim on it to cut away some areas rather than trying to build directly to that outline right in the initial surface construction.

> however, I still don't get a 'soap dish' closed all the way around with the exception
> of the 'hole' opening at the top inside the top frame! Aaaaaaagh!

I'm not really able to do much with just a description of problems like this, I really can't help very much if I can't see the things you're describing unfortunately.

- Michael
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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.15 
I'm making every effort to understand Loft/ Flow/ Network & Sweep commands - how to utilize them to make a one-piece surface that wraps around a rectangular top frame (which has rounded corners) - and that the area INSIDE that top frame is the ONLY OPENING in the object!

I get what is sub-d modelling: https://youtu.be/ckOTl2GcS-E however, how far does Moi3d go in that direction to 'fake it?' ha-ha!

Example:

EDITED: 5 Feb by FRACTIONALIST


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 From:  Michael Gibson
8288.16 In reply to 8288.15 
Hi Ced, those are probably just too many constraints that you're trying to apply all at once, I don't think you're going to be able to get a good results with so many constraints.

In order to solve the constraint of the bottom being closed and being a single surface, you would need your loft profiles be elongated at their bottoms and touch each other at a single "pole" point as in the example I posted previously here: http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=8288.12

Using a lot of sections in either regular Loft or Network will tend to apply too much pressure on the generated surface and it will have wiggles and bumps in it as it tries to force a surface through too many large changes in shape in too small of an area. Using Loft with the "loose" style is more tolerant of that and so you might try working with that way of lofting rather than regular loft. Loose loft will make the surface only generally guided by the profiles rather than forced to go exactly through each surface and so it applies less pressure on the result.

Under normal circumstances you would close off the bottom of a shape like you're showing there with a separate planar surface, it will be difficult to try and make the bottom in your case to be part of the same surface as the sides, so you may need to use Flow only for the sides and find some other way of positioning your texture pieces on the bottom area, since it is flat maybe you should just copy your texture objects to there using Transform > Orient instead of using Flow for that area.

- Michael
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 From:  Karsten (KMRQUS)
8288.17 In reply to 8288.15 
Yep,
divide and conquer!






Swept top surface - helper surfaces for opening and outer contour (extruded) - blend between them - stencil top surface - blend between blend and cutted top surface.

You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you might find
You get what you need - Written by Keith Richards, Mick Jagger

Have a nice day
Karsten
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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.18 
Thank you for your input - meanwhile - My interest is determining what are the limits as far as Moi3d can go to solve the problem, before I venture outside -

There is EvoluteTools D.LOFT http://www.evolute.at/software/software-overview.html

There is Wings 3D https://sourceforge.net/projects/wings/?source=typ_redirect

It would be nice to control the file / polygon count weight / size - some of my files are almost 2 million bytes~

The object is like those inflatable rafts - with a flat bottom - all one piece - top is an open rectangular frame, the hull is closed below.

I'll keep at it and let you know the results.
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
8288.19 In reply to 8288.18 
If you want try a new "Subdivide" program maybe this new one can help you! (in its free version)
It has a direct bridge in the two ways with Moi! :)
Rocket 3F : https://rocket3f.com/
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 From:  Ced (FRACTIONALIST)
8288.20 
Warning: Possible humor, lingo may not be spot-on:



It can be done, however, there are other issues i.e. fitting a bevel into the opening. This is how it's done:

1. Line up centered and symmetrical *helps three closed curves
2. Not *too far apart - it can be stretched or scaled later
3. Make a *fishhook from the edge of the top opening frame all the way around - about 100 ribs - open curves
4. The *fish hook if you want a rounded edge, with a 'long' stem
5. Attach the stem to a *point, which is centered on the back, or bottom level
6. Best to drag points from the tail of the fish hook to the center point
7. Make sure everything is spot-on - connected
8. Loft *from a quad on the top closed curve - using 100 or so *depends square polygon(? lingo - those little square surfaces!) sufaces & 'Uniform'
9. Wire-cut the loft (choose 'closed')
10. Remove the SURFACE
11. Fine tune the 'mesh' points, clean and align if necessary - adjustments
12. Network, top & back rail - then all the 'ribs' (open fish hook curves)

Then you have it! I'll post something later to show
Humberto Quackenbush
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