Z-Brush? I thought this is a "sculpting" software for organic objects and not for hard surface creation? Now that I have watched some videos: It`s like working with "digital" clay...

Since I have no talent for this kind of artistic sculpting:

Are there "CAD"-workflows for creating models like this?

There are a lot of panels, panellines, holes and other hard-surface type features that should be easy to create with CAD software. And isn`t the whole model a typical "hard-surface" model?

Yes, this is zbrush. Zbrush powers are not just in sculpting, but also in cutting geo etc.

For zbrush hardsurface I highly recomment this truck tutorial series from Kirill - it's worth the money

https://gumroad.com/kirillchepizhko


Vojtěch

The only problem why you can not make it with MoI is that it has some organic transitions in base shape, that will be very hard to reproduce with MoI. All other stuff in general can be made with MoI without any problems. If you want to use cad software for this, you can use that, that supports SubD or Surface modeling like SolidWorks, Rhino, Inventor, Alias, SolidThinking, Fusion 360, Simens NX, Creo Parametric... As you can see there are lot of them so check what is for you.

Thanks for the link. But what about using CAD-Software like Moi? ZBrush is (how should I put it) too "artsy" for me; I am more of a CAD and tech guy...

Or is ZBrush really better for complex hard surface models? I thought the contrary: CAD-like software for hard surface models and ZBrush or 3dCoat for organic things like humans, creatures etc. (And I am only interested in building hard surface type models).

Thanks, Andrei! Your post didn`t show up when I was writing the previous reply...

Gill,
ZBrush is for organic stuff first of all, but it has tools that allows you to create hard surfaces too. But result is far away from ideal. Quality of organic surfaces are even worse then from polygons.
It is good for games because in games you will see only low poly, so no need for superb quality, or it is good for intermediate quality render of hard surfaces.
If for example you create some close render of this model you will see how imperfect are surfaces, I can see all that artifacts even from this render.
So if you want superb result use Cad.
If MoI had continuity(tangent) options in tools you could made this model without problems in MoI.

Thanks Andrei,

thats very helpfull! Anyway, I will buy MOI. I used the demo for a month now, made some not to complex hard surface models and it was great to use. The snapping for example is extremely well-thought-out and easy to use!

The only problem is that I have no idea how to make more complex models like the pictured "spaceship".

I guess I will also have to try, learn (and buy) some other CAD programs...

Gill, you can simplify base shapes of this spaceship and you will be able to replicate it in MoI, just use Loft for that base shapes, check here I made a lot of tutorials about that forms: http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=6058.1

All other stuff of this spaceship is not a problem for MoI.

If you are going to try other software, you can start from SolidWorks.

Gill, I just remember I made about year ago tutorial about space ship, it will be usefull for you beacuse I show there how to make that base shapes.

ZBrush has now a cool "Zmodeler" ;) + some tools ArrayMesh, NanoMesh, QMesh : you can make some things ;)

Every complex model is made from a lot od smaller parts.

Zbrush is superb for quick sketch what you have in head, like taking a simple pen and drawing a concept. Then it depends what you need. If game model or clean model for render, you need to retopo it.

If it is just for static render or design, you can go with decimated geo from Zbrush and polypaint it or use some box uv mapping and then paint it in some other program.

Zb is little bit hard to get at the beginning, MoI is super fast to learn, have very simple ui and powerfull tools.

Similar to Zbrush is Mudbox or 3dcoat - they have more 3d program UI, but ZB have a lot more abilities and most designers use Zb. In big productions Zb is standard.

So, complex models are realy not software dependent - it's about deconstruction what you model, think about separation to smaller and smaller parts and then detailing them.
Start from big shapes and going to smallest one.

I saw people are doing product designs in both - zbrush, nurbs modelers and even polymodelers. Software is secondary, idea is most important :)


Vojtěch

Hi Gill,

re:
> May I ask a question? What kind of ("state-of-the-art") workflow is the best for this kind of object:

Often times vehicles land in a sort of gray area between organic and mechanical, and that makes it not quite so fixed that one specific modeling technology is the automatic best fit for that. You would probably want to use whatever feels most comfortable for you.

The model you show there is tremendously detailed and complex, and so it will involve a very substantial amount of work to make it, no matter what tool you are using.

MoI itself is focused on the idea of making it super quick, fluid, and easy to do simple mechanical shapes. Your model there is by no means a simple mechanical shape and so it's not a direct fit for the core idea behind MoI but it still would be possible to pursue it with MoI if you were to stick with the project for an extended period of time.

- Michael

Something to consider to speed up modeling in MoI is to avoid filleting every single hard edge and use a rounder edge shader in your 3d application.
What I would called 'cosmetic' fillets (very small radius) can easily be handle that way.

It simplify models a lot, and help for further editing.
Depending of your render engine, it's a method that can even work for normal map baking.

When looking at those spaceship models (really amazing job), to get this amount of complexity, we probably need a better sub-object management (groups).

A really amazing concept are Shutline in Rhino :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_5oO9ehmoo

The workflow is super cool, non destructive and could help a lot to create those SF paneling details.
But it's some sort of 'post meshing' effect, and seems to create easily lots of nasty shading glitches too :(
I can only dream about a enhanced version of this concept in MoI, but I'm affraid it's probably 'too specialized' to fit in MoI toolset.

Hi PaQ,

> but I'm affraid it's probably 'too specialized' to fit in MoI toolset.

Yes, kind of... But it also fits in well with the overall strategy of "make things happen using 2D curves" which does give a lot of weight on the positive side of working on it.

That existing one in Rhino does indeed work just on the mesh output and not directly on the real NURBS model, and it can tend to get confused if there's any kind of irregularity or mixture of large and small polygons right in that particular area.

If I were to try it in MoI I guess I'd probably be more likely to try making real NURBS geometry with it rather than only trying to modify things at meshing time... That would generate heavy real geometry but also would be likely to be more robust and not generate glitchy results as much either though. Maybe at some point with a deeper history mechanism you could temporarily turn off that step in the history and let the model recalculate without those in it and avoid the heavy geometry problem that way.

There are still other areas for 2D curves interaction with solids that will likely take priority over this though, like "depth limited" booleans with 2D curves.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

Well that's really nice to ear.
I got a nearly working solution in modo, using curves to drive shading.



But Modo can't read 3d curves (.dxf splines option are just empty file for modo), so I had to rebuild splines in modo using .dxf polylines as reference ... not very handy for the moment, but the concept is cool :)

Just want to share, how ended my weapon model in final game quality. Have to say, Moi will definitely stay in my pipeline, love it!
I was affraid litle bit, how the translated nurbs to poly model will behave when baking Normal and other maps, but everything war fine.

Heres link https://www.artstation.com/artwork/scifi-assault-rifle


Vojtěch

Lovely result Vojtěch, what tool did you to materialise it with, Marmoset or Substance ?

Martin
(TpwUK)

Thanks! I used Substance Painter for texturing and Marmoset is just for visualising purpose

Vojtěch

Thanks for sharing the end result, looks great. So for the low poly you were saying you retopologised the high poly obj exported from MOI in Maya?

My workflow - highpoly moi3d + fusion360, then uv mapping + lowpoly in Maya, then Substance Painter for texturing.

Not sure if anybody is interested, but I'd like to give my models for this community to take a look, maybe somebody can point me out some mistakes or it will help another way.
But please keep it just for yourself, not to spread it to another persons outside this forum. 3dm + fbx UV mapped lowpoly

www.b-east.cz/work/weapon_moi3d.zip

Vojtěch