Hi Andrei,

First off, thanks for your videos. They've been very helpful in learning how to use MoI.
FWIW, my name is Chipp, not Cheap. Cheap has a negative connotation in English. I know that wasn't your intention as ad hominem attacks really have no place on this, or any other forum.

Your cursory observation actually does have a bit of truth to it. I am not an expert modeler in any one single package. You can find plenty of better Industrial Designers who are better modelers and renderers for sure!

I feel that I could model this form easily *AFTER it is now designed* using Lightwave Modeler. I've been using it since version 4 (shows how much gray hair I have!) and am decent with SubDs. As you know, there is a huge amount of technical expertise which goes into proper SubD modeling. Building the correct cage with the correct Polyflow can be difficult and time consuming-- especially if you're trying to 'fake boolean' parts after creating a surface. But I digress.

I also know a bit about SubDs in SketchUp. I beta-tested Artisan (Dale Marten's Sketchup SubD tool, and even did the Artisan Lightcycle tutorial (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo3W23-5dgI).

The key part for me in this exercise was to be able to 'find' the correct shape. While SubD's certainly can CREATE this shape-- and I did use them to initially do so:



The shape just wasn't crisp enough for me. I know it's a subtle difference from the final MoI model, but it was important. Sometimes I can tell when a design *originated* from SubD vs Splines. Something about the lack of crsipness..

The designs on this page have a different 'feel' from the work I'm now doing in MoI.

In particular, the ability for me to be able to create a few intersecting surfaces, then play with them accurately to define the broad design elements and curvature, was what I wanted to be able to do. As you know, it's difficult to do that in classic SubD applications. I know you can drag around a bunch of points, but it's very hard adjusting a long surface curve *in the middle* of the curve– as you can do in MoI.

Certainly MoI isn't the very best piece of software for this sort of thing, it's just that it's easy for me to jump in and out of. My career is not only about 3D modeling. Sometimes I'm asked to program. Or build a website (I built Artisan's ). I've also served in several executive management positions, which means I can literally go months at a time before jumping 'back' into a 3D job. It is because of the superior ease-of-use and learning (***and RE-LEARING for old folks like me!***) which draws me to Michael's amazing program.

Here's what I finally delivered to the customer. It's not a complete design, but useful for discussion. The original design was created in SketchUp for roughing out the idea for review by the client, which was done in 1.5 days. Then it was refined, built and rendered in MoI in 3 days, including input from the client at every step of the way. For me, that's a pretty good pace.

One big reason I use SketchUp at first is because it's camera integrates well with KeyShot (and thanks to Frenchy, also Visualizer!), and I can use SketchUp's *linework* to indicate form over a finished render. I wish someone could figure out how to camera match MoI and KeyShot, then I could use MoI from the get go!.

FWIW, Client loved it. A few of the renders:

<< I also know a bit about SubDs in SketchUp. I beta-tested Artisan (Dale Marten's Sketchup SubD tool)

Funny I have made the French Artisan Version and Manual for Dale! ;)
A very tricky plugin! http://moiscript.weebly.com/artisan-le-manuel.html



Your video remember me a French Company Villac who made some wood toys very famous in the world!
http://www.vilac.com/voitures/petites-voitures-en-bois.html

And of course I want this one! ;)



PS How stay in equilibrium the red Mono "2 align wheels" model at stop?

Thanks Frenchy!

My client has this idea for a car that splits in two. He is filming a documentary on car design and wants to show this concept. I'm no huge fan of the idea, and as a designer can certainly find implementation issues going forward. Still, the idea is to create something which sparks the interest, much like the Ambulance Drone.

If you notice, the back and front wheels are 'tiltable' with the front one being able to 'split' depending on whether in Bi-mode or Quad-mode. One idea has a gyro stabilization which can adjust the wheels to provide balance, much like Segway. Another idea could be some sort of 'training wheels' which deploy below and to the side of the vehicle when at a standstill or going too slow to be stable. Sure, there are problems with all of this, but the keen point is to create a concept which inspires folks to think.

Pardon the side trip, and not saying you are being critical, but the tendency to overthink technology with regard to implementation issues can sometimes get in the way of functional brainstorming. Case in point, I've been asked to help facilitate the upcoming DARPA Neural Engineering Bootcamp with the goal of taking a futurist look at what's possible in the next 5, 10 and 15 years. One of the conference attendees wants to start off with a regulatory workshop, to *make sure* what we think of can realistically be done. I'm not sure this is valuable, as we don't want to put too many constraints on what's possible, and instead put constraints on the problem area(s) we're trying to ideate on-- especially with regard to current policy.

Much of what I do conceptually focuses on what's possible, not what is currently doable. :-) MoI lets me do this in a way that allows people to *suspend disbelief* for a tiny moment.

Chipp,
Love the final result, and the renders are awesome!
I have a slightly older version of SketchUp, but never really use it. In your opinion, is it worth learning just for the possible illustrations? I'm thinking that Toons in KeyShot might do the same with some practice?
Thanks for sharing.
Ron

Very nice work Chipp. Thanks for sharing the rationale behind your modeling decisions.

Ed Ferguson

Hi Ron,

I doubt the Toons shader in Keyshot would work very well. Typically toon shaders work in two ways:

1. They create an HBO (heavy black outline) around the silhouette of an object. This is done by calculating the surface normal's vector pointing away from the camera and this technique can sometimes can create unwanted artifacts, especially where they are not wanted.
2. It creates a lighter line at the end of parts in where the vector is pointing towards the camera.

So, this means toon shaders won't like MoI's isocurves and they would not be shown, unless the model was broken up significantly, in which case other rendering artifacts will be present. And, as we all know, Keyshot won't allow you to even change vertex smoothing parameters.

Sidebar: I did manage to render the BiCar as NURBs in Keyshot. While a bit slower, the resolution is amazing!

SketchUp is without peer when it comes to creating a 'sketchy' render. And, for designers, many times it's really important to communicate ***This IS NOT a final design!!!*** This used to be done using marker renders and pencil sketches. These type of sketches do well in communicating a concept without a note of finality. Consider this SketchUp generated image:




It communicates a number of things in a sketch. Human scale. Transparent view into something already solid. Non final development of the product. Creating something like this in SketchUp is very easy. It's done completely within SketchUp (thanks now to Frenchy's Visualizer plugin find!) and the overlay is quickly done in Pshop. Also, SketchUp has a very strong component architecture, so replicating things is simple, and editing an instance updates them all.

I have been thinking of when I use SketchUp and when I prefer MoI. I think this diagram pretty much sums it up:




The design process typically has both DIVERGE and CONVERGE phases. When working with a client in the early DIVERGE stage, it's important to be nimble and generate many concepts as quickly as possible. I can easily present them in a rapid, yet elegant way.

I also like to use SketchUp for tweaking designs before the CONVERGE phase. It's great, as are most poly modelers, for endlessly rearranging the polys to get a semblance, in block form, for what the final design should be. And the SketchUp line renders help hide inconsistencies which would show up as glaring artifacts in a more finished renderer.

I'll then go to MoI for the CONVERGE phase. In the last three months I've been able to do these things in MoI:

• A number of nice Keyshot renders based on quick design concepts built in MoI
• A wall mounted remote for house automation. I ended up creating a STEP file which then a machine shop could use to automate the milling for the final prototype. Turned out great-- and VERY accurate.
• Just last week I designed a piece of hardware for DNA testing which had to fit perfectly on top of an iPad. I created the design in MoI, then shot out an STL to Stratasys Direct who then printed the 3d model. Worked perfect.

So, for me, it's clear I need to use many different tools to accomplish different results.

And don't forget something with all of that : the pleasure of use the tools and the very short learning curve!
So you are naturally more productive in no time (and this is perfect for "old white hairs" ! ;)

Wow, Chipp...thanks for taking the time for such a complete response! I used to do the marker / ink renderings a million years ago; but never was completely happy with the "sketchy" computer illustrations I was able to do with the software that I had. Looks like I need to learn something new!
Regards,
Ron

Good for you. If you do use SketchUp, you might want to visit this rendering tute:
http://sketchucation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25197

My first attempt to model a car in any program. With Max's SubD scripts for MoI I thought I'd give it a try.

Still a WIP, but far enough along that I can answer the question that started this thread: Is MoI suitable for vehicle designs?

In my opinion, it depends. This model has gone surprisingly fast so far. And I'm a beginner. For cars without sharp edges I think the MoI SubD scripts work great. Controlling hard edges is a challenge with the current state of the tools, so I won't be attempting a 1964 Mustang or razor-edge Lamborghini.

Next steps are to finish tweaking the body, then use MoI traditional tools to make the windows, lights, grill, etc. Because the body is a solid, scooping out areas should be easy.

I'll make a mini-tutorial if anyone is interested.

Ed Ferguson

Hi Ed,
Looks good. Yes, I'd be interested in a tutorial.

Off topic...I believe we talked a number of years ago, can't remember what about. Something to do with your website? I still remember how impressed I was with your ring designs and renders as well as the ambigram generator you had on your site. I see it's no longer there. What happened to it?

Chipp -

After reading your postings, your blog, and your company web site - you should be teaching me!

OK - it will be awhile as I model when my wife is watching "her" shows on TV.

I really didn't intend to finish this originally, but the speed at which it got to this stage, and the results I got, encourage me to take it further.

And all while staying inside MoI! Well, except for the KeyShot render.

Ed Ferguson

PS - If you contact me via my web site I can tell you about the titanium rings.

wow - and all done in moi, nice

Thought I'd go with a different style.

No need to start all over - just moved a few key points around in the MoI SubD structure.

Worked up a simple process to make headlight buckets / lenses without resorting to networks, blends, patches, etc. That phase of NURBs process is next.

Ed Ferguson



Playing with various design elements.

Looking great, Ed. Can you show a MoI screenshot? Looking forward to the tute :-)

Here ya go Chipp -

This is my model created inside MoI with Max's SubD scripts, just before running his script: _Subdiv_beta6 to smooth it out. Then Boolean diff the wheel openings and export OBJ to KeyShot.

OK... gotta save something for the tutorial :)

Ed Ferguson

wow looking forward to the tutorial :-)

Depands what you want to do really. Want to design things that look like cars, planes, etc? Use Moi. Want to design real cars, planes, etc? Then you'll need Catia.

There's more to this than just continuity. Internal and external references along with co-ordinate systems are vital (and required by the industry). Then you're looking at assemblies, again crammed with internal and external references, skeleton parts, etc. And I'm just scratching the surface here.

FWIW: I am a designer at a company that provides parts for major airliner OEM's. Catia is what is used and the only software that can do the job.

Hi Sebastian,

Long time no hear, hope all is well :)

> Catia is what is used and the only software that can do the job.

I wouldn't say the only software, there are other high end CAD software used in the aeronautical sector, I know Boeing use Siemens NX as well as Catia and I think most aeronautical companies use a combination of a few CAD software.

-

In theory Rhino is not sufficient for "really or like than"?