See this guy! http://600v.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48

@Frenchy,

He uses the artisan plugin for sketchup which allows you to do sub'd modelling in sketchup.

You can't create work like this without all the plugins and particularly sub'd plugin.

So it backs up what Andrei is trying to say about modelling vehicle concepts with sub'd.

His work is inspiring though.

It would be interesting to know all the plugins that he uses.
The problem I have with plugins is that as new versions of sketchup are released plugins might not be supported or work (same with blender).

<< It would be interesting to know all the plugins that he uses.
Easy : Just see the interface! ;)
At this date Artisan will not be existing! There were another one Smooth Tools ;)
Even not sure he used it at this date because there were present on the Interface too if yes!
No reason to hide it!


And you have now this free one by Thomthom! ;)



But the new paradigm in polygon modeling is now ZBrush! (The new "ZModeler" function)

Hello,

Here are some videos that may be interesting to the original request in terms of workflow.

3d-Coat and T-Splines for Reverse Engineering:
http://youtu.be/BUZE0ATWbEM

Modeling a Car with T-Splines for Rhino:
http://youtu.be/ARwhgH3uuVg

VSR Shape Modeling For Rhino Tutorial Of Audi Q5:
http://youtu.be/gT28DocJEE8

The old VSR channel on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/VirtualShapeResearch

The 3D-Coat tut may have some application for MoI and the scripts from Max as well, interesting stuff. The TSplines and ADSM (VSR) tuts are a little dated and you may be able to accomplish the model faster using some of the newer tools in those packages but the foundation is there.

Hey guys!
(Long post here - haven't had time to answer til now, been on vacation)

So many answers! It has taken me quite some time to go through them - checking out the software's you recommended and trying a few of them out.

Andrei:
Thank you for your insights and also your recommendation of using Sub-D's and NVil in particular. It seems like a good software. I already do use Sub-d - I have a license of MODO 801 and I have Sub-d-modeling as a part of my design process. I really like to do the initial modeling in MODO. I have spent about 4 months now in MoDo and I feel that its great for the early design phase - Push/pull polygons to create a base-mesh and to play around try out different concepts. But as this part is completed I prefer going to a Nurbs modeler to finalize things. Getting all the curves perfect and all edges/fillets exactly where I want them - because this has been very frustrating and hard for me to do in sub-d. I understand that this is because I dont have enough skills and understanding of how topology/edgeflow etc works and Im sure I would be able to do it in Sub-D one day if I just practice more, but I think its important to use a tool that _feels_ good - if you know what I mean?
I do respect your opinion, I know you are a very experienced modeler so I will take some time and try out NVil properly (eventhough I already have MODO). Im currently looking through your NVil tutorials on your youtube channel. It does look interesting.

Raoul:
Thanks again for explaining as well as showing your workflow.
I think 40 hrs sounds reasonable, especially as you were learning the tools at the same time.
Im currently trying out your workflow - building rough model in MoI first like you said, and meanwhile I just started out playing with Rhino and going through some tutorials.
Do you by any chance know any good tutorials that could accelerate my learning - except for the ones I can find on Youtube and on Rhino website? (I certainly dont mind paying a bit if they are worth it).

Mauro (M-DYNAMICS):
Thank you for your input and sharing your projects. I agree with you fully that sub-d is the way to go early on, to find the right proportions. I use MODO as well. Would be great to follow along on your upcoming carmodeling project, the ones you showed here looks outstanding – alot of attention to detail there, very cool.

OSTexo:
”Did you also happen to see the model file you could download that went along with the PDF? ”
Ah yes, there was a folder with several Rhino files. I have not tried to do the tutorial yet though. I will try to get the hang on Rhino itself first. I only played around with Rhino a little bit before, but this was in school about 6 years ago now, so I have some catching up to do :)
Yeah you are quite right, it would be beneficial to me to understand continuity since I hope to do designs for car companies in the future.
Interesting stuff there, thanks alot! Cool workflow with T-splines and 3DCoat there. 3dCoat has a lot of very creative solutions, I think we will be seeing more of that software in the future. I tried its sculpting tools abit before and it was not bad at all. I would say that Zbrush appealed to me more for some reason, I think that was due to the interface though.
But anyway, thanks alot for the links. I do wish there was more tutorials on ADSM around though.

Chippwalters:
Oh yes absolutly, being facile and very fluent in the software is my key concern as well. Thats why Im spending alot of time looking around trying out different approaches to hopefully one day find one the suits me. The dream would be to find a software that doesnt hinder or slow creativity, one that actually inspires and speeds it up.
Thank you for sharing that. I was not aware that Bulgarov uses MoI in his workflow. He is a very interesting and dedicated guy, check this interview with him I found on soundcloud, its very inspiring: https://soundcloud.com/the-collective-podcast/the-collective-ep-7-vitaly

RobertH:
Thank you for the recommendation of FormZ. I remember someone telling me about that software a few years ago, but this was the first time I actually tried it out. I was under the impression that it was a tool for architects. I have to say Im pleasently suprised by it. I watched through all the video links you posted and there seems to be an array of tools for complex form creation. I noticed alot of interesting easy-to-use tools in the deform area for example as well.

One question though which I really cant answer myself:
How would the capabilities of FormZ stand up against Rhino(+Shape Modeling) - in terms of surface-matching and controlled form-transitions?

Bisenberger:
Thanks for the link. Looks interesting, I think its a little unfortunate that its a pdf document. Would certainly be worth the 50 dollars if it was a video tutorial, now Im not so sure. I've never been a fan of reading pdf's for some reason.

PaQ:
”I can't wait Max Smirnov work to see how it turns on real projects. I do not care about the lack of editing... ”
Im not sure I follow here, are you referring to the obj-importer?

Kevjon:
Very impressive that he managed to do that in Sketchup. Somehow all the models seem very ”boxy/chunky” I have to say.

"I have a license of MODO 801 and I have Sub-d-modeling as a part of my design process. I really like to do the initial modeling in MODO. I have spent about 4 months now in MoDo and I feel that its great for the early design phase - Push/pull polygons to create a base-mesh and to play around try out different concepts. But as this part is completed I prefer going to a Nurbs modeler to finalize things."

https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/modo/plugins/power-subd-nurbs/

Blindfoldjump - Maybe you have looked at this already ... ?

I've used the SolidWorks version of this plugin. It works fairly well, however, it is not intended for very high number of polys.

Chris:
No I didnt know about that one. Thanks for that tip, thats definitely interesting. Do you know if applied edge-weight will stay when exporting to Nurbs?
I mean if it would keep the form.

When you export from PowerNurbs, the control mesh and edge/vertex weighting will be lost. However, the object won't change shape, so what you see as the representation of the nurbs surface when you are editing it in PowerNurbs will be maintained in the exported object.

In the SolidWorks version, there are some settings that control how the subd object is displayed. This is basically a preview of the nurbs surface based on the level of subdivisions applied to the control or base mesh. There is also a "Quality" setting for the converted nurbs surface.

Hi blindfoldjump,

Take a look at this video to see how the NURBS Blend, Merge and Extend surfaces tools work in formZ. It concludes with a look at controlling continuity across surfaces which I think you will find very useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzhMzZg00w


I also really like how the SketchUp equivalent of the Push/Pull tool (Reshape in formZ) works in conjunction with the Offset Outline, Offset Segment and Imprint commands work for quickly creating and modifying objects. And the way that the drawing plane will switch to whatever surface that you hover over (although it can be locked, if you want) works, which makes it very intuitive when designing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfQtABfGX3M


For any piece of software there is always a learning curve. What I found when playing around with Rhino was that it was powerful, but it was not at all obvious how to harness that power, without extensive training. Look how many people on this forum jumped from Rhino to MOI. There did not seem, at least to me, any real coherent design philosophy in it's operation. It felt really slapped together, although it looks really nice. So many things required advanced knowledge to make anything work. You could not logically puzzle them out. It just wasn't for me. So I'm also not the person to compare formZ surfaces with Rhinos', but looking at the first video will answer some of your questions about formZ anyway. Also I was really interested in T-Splines for Rhino, but there was no demo, and I read a lot of complaints in various forums about it's performance. Plus it is expensive for a plug-in, and formZ has its functions built-in.

That said formZ seems like a much better working (and learning) environment. There are a lot of really good videos explaining the various features. It's a very mature product and has a very responsive support group to answer any questions and fix any problems. I've also seen them take models that are not working properly and fix them and explain any problems for many users in the forums. Reminds me of Michael...

In addition, right clicking on any tool will give you the option to open up the manual entry for that tool, show a video of how that tool works (for many but unfortunately, not all tools) and lets you assign a shortcut key for that tool. Hovering over a tool gives an extended description. It's easy to create your own toolbars and to rearrange existing tools. Hitting the spacebar brings up a favorite tools screen (customizable), displays the last few commands you used and can reuse (the number of tools displayed is customizable) and pressing any key, while on that screen, will give you a list of all the tools starting with that key. Undo's are unlimited. All in all an easy powerful system to learn how it works.

formZ also works at a higher level than poly modelers, getting a lot more done in a shorter amount of time. HTH

Hello RobertH,

It's been years since I've taken a look at formZ, also being under the impression that it was mainly targeted at the AEC market. I see some real similarities (with workflow improvements) to Rhino+ADSM+Tsplines, with formZ Pro coming in at one third of the cost. Thanks for the info, it certainly looks like a strong contender for design work.

Hi OSTexo,

Yes, when I looked at formZ some years back, I wasn't that impressed. But since version 7, it seems like a whole new beast. With the version 8 addition of sub division tools I decided to give it another look. It does have a lot of tools for architectural design, but with the addition of the flowing organic lines used by Frank Gehry, Zaha Hadid and Santiago Calatrava. In fact it was when I saw a model of a Zaha Hadid building and the Valencia Opera House by Calatrava done in formZ that it occurred to me that it could be used for so much more than just architecture. Being grounded in architecture with many design professionals depending on it is a good thing, with a lot of the quirks already worked out and for creating the good solid geometry necessary for 3D printing and CNC milling.

It has been used in movies for miniature model design, set design, pre-visualization, etc. in movies like Minority Report, John Carter, Pirates of the Caribbean, Jumper, Transformers, Time Machine and many, many more. It is used by animators, illustrators, engineers, industrial designers, urban planners and architects. It's a great surface and solid modeler. I've only been using it for a short time but I really like it.

Looking at some of the videos of the new Zbrush 4R7 you can create some really cool models. But when you analyze the work flow in those videos it looks so incredibly tedious to get anything done, not to mention, making any significant modifications must be a nightmare. FormZ lets you quickly put together a design and easily refine it. There's a definite learning curve but it seems so much faster than some of the other modeling software that I've looked at. Try the free 30 day demo, I think you'll be impressed.

I used FormZ for about 10 years. Its very powerful and the interface is well thought out, and I miss it.

The demand for parametric models with construction history as well as an industry standard native file format forced me to move to something else (SolidWorks).

Hi chrisd,

SolidWorks looks really cool but it was just too expensive for me. How do you like it and how does it compare to formZ? Just curious, what is the industry standard native file format? Thanks chrisd.

Hi Blindfoldjump,

I'm also trying to create concept cars with sub-d modeling and with nurbs and moi3d too.Many years ago I have tried to learn to create my concept cars with 3ds max,then I saw blender3d is improving it's tools often so I decided to learn blender3d sub-d modeling.Today I'm pretty good with 3d modeling cars,airplanes so I'm selling my 3d models on online 3d stock markets.I must admit I'm not very patient with smaller details.Three years ago I also decided to invest in graphic tablet and I'm practicing my sketching with autodesk sketchbook pro in my spare time.I'm selftaught designer(enthysiast),but I'm giving my best to represent my concepts best I can,to learn and to always improve my skills.Even I've never finished design or art school I worked as graphical and industrial packaging designer,where I learned to work with Rhino 4.0 and promissed me some day I will invest in something similar in the future,so I invested in moi3d.I also learned when I worked 1 year as industrial packaging designer,that nurbs and cad are industrial standard,but today maybe it is different so people who create sub-d models also has their part in creation real prototypes.I know back then, when I designed a bottle in blender3d(sub-d modeling),I also had to build it in rhino3d to be usable for real prototyping.Anyway because my passion for cardesign I learned to build my ideas with blender3d and with moi3d,but as Michael Gibson told you patch by patch without continuity in surfaces.More often I have the problem to create fillets for my sharp edges,if there would better tools for that kind of operations it would be awesome.My method of work when I create my concept cars is next.I create pretty fast car with blender3d,if my client like it I then use this 3d model as a reference and I simplify it or change design in moi3d V3 version.My aim is to create even better design with moi3d,then I create it with blender3d sub-d modeling software.If you want to learn sub-d modeling in blender3d you could check it on link below.

http://cgcookie.com/blender/cgc-courses/modeling-motorcycle/ for this course you have to pay 18$ but worths.I payed it for 1 month and I learned a lot.Also on that website you can find other free tutorials.

http://cgcookie.com/blender/cgc-courses/modeling-a-porsche-911-gt3-rs/

Check my 3d models created and designed with blender3d on my behance portfolio if you like.
https://www.behance.net/zenox3d

That was sub-d modeling now on links below you could check what I have created so far with moi3d,what I think looks pretty descent.
http://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/aircraft/sport-private/honda-jet-private-aircraft-restyled
http://www.cgtrader.com/3d-models/aircraft/commercial/boeing-787-8-comercial-aircraft-cad-model
https://www.behance.net/gallery/15975325/Exona-2-stylish-concept-CAD-project


I've learned a lot on how to build my 3d models with moi3d by watching tutorials about rhino3d and particulalrly with solidworks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V71WJkLuZq4

Anyway I hope so this post and my advices will help you to chose the right tool for your workflow.

Robert,

There are a few parametric modelers that are in common use, SolidWorks, Pro Engineer, Unigraphics (now Siemens). I only have SolidWorks myself, and it seems SolidWorks files are generally well accepted. I would hesitate to call any one application the standard though.

I really like that FormZ can work equally well with meshes and nurbs surfaces, and I miss that in SolidWorks.

Thanks Chris, just to clarify, what your saying is that the SolidWorks native format is considered a standard format? What file type extension does it use?

Just out of curiosity, did you get a chance to play with the new formZ sub division tools in version 8? If so what did you think of them?

Thanks again for your reply!

Robert,

Yes, SolidWorks is a standard format for parametric/history based CAD but there are a few others including ProE and Unigraphics/Siemens.
Extensions are SLDPRT (part file), SLDASM (assembly file, references part files), SLDDRW (drawing file)

These programs are common for engineering and some product applications.

Chris:
” the control mesh and edge/vertex weighting will be lost. However, the object won't change shape”
Outstanding – thats all I needed to know. I will get that plug-in. Thanks for the tip Chris

RobertH:
Thanks for the links.
So far with FormZ Im very impressed by it. The UI doesn't feel as intuitive as MoI does though. However the time spent for the learning might be worth it, you have certainly made alot of great arguments for it and the software hasn't shown anything that would speak against what you say. Im still leaning back and forth here between Rhino and FormZ, still need some more experience in both software's to be able to take a mature decision.

You're quite right, there are alot of videos showing the different features, which is awesome. I would however love to see one where the modeler actually goes through a longer and perhaps more complex modeling task to really understand the capabilities. Do you know of any?

Nikola:
Thanks alot for taking the time and sharing your experiences and your workflow. Very informative for me. I checked out your stuff, and really like your designs, especially ”E futureOn”-concept, strong design.

Regarding Blender: I have to say that I really like Blender. And even more I like how they decided to create and open source free software. I think this will boost alot of users to develop the software together as a community which will most certainly lead to something amazing in the future (if not already). If I would have known about Blender earlier I probably would have chosen it as my sub-d modeler, however I already bought my license for MODO and also Im very interested in following the development of Meshfusion as an exploratory design tool, so I think I will stick to MODO. Thanks alot anyway for showing me the videos on it.

Hi

Sorry for the late reply, I've been away...

Here are some videos you may like:

Note that in the models/modeling that are shown in the videos, have anti-alias turned off and the display resolution is set to simple medium. This can be easily changed and you get a much higher resolution display, (if your hardware can handle it of course, I have absolutely no problem on my system). And you can switch between these at any time.

bonzai3d - Designing a sleek aerodynamic land sailer (bonzai3d is an older subset of formZ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ5FoZPQlF4

Discover form•Z: Creating contemporary 3D forms
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LTD-k2VB-E

Subdivision modeling and 3D Printing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGNucQ83__w

Discover form•Z 2 parts: parametric modeling in a modern fluid interface
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdVm0dSn6mY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBuSkTdxgpg

build a house in 30 minutes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0n0FGm3kw2I

bonzai3d - Valencia Opera House (bonzai3d is an older subset of formZ)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bvkIC5NmO8

Fabricating a Lattice Structure with form•Z
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_N9SupPkbFU

Hey
Thanks again Robert! Looking forward to go through these :)

10 minutes Car blocking out.