It's hard to imagine something new :)

Hi Andrei,

In formZ you can subdivide objects and have a bunch of Sub-Division tools to manipulate these objects, grow faces or edges, stretch, bridge, squeeze, divide, etc. In addition you can also use the regular editing tools like move, scale, copy, etc on these sub divided objects. When you're finished with this object, you can leave it as is. Or convert it to NURBS or quad-mesh objects. You can of course also make a copy of the sub divided object and hide it, or stick it on another layer and hide that layer, if you want to edit it later.

If converted to NURBS, you can boolean it with other objects (Union, Difference, etc.). You can extract or remove faces and then attach, merge, blend, extend, etc. with other NURBS surface objects.

So in a sense you're right in that you will not be able to edit the object like you could when it was a sub divided object. But in another very important sense it opens up, within a single program, many more options for creating very complex objects and surfaces. You can also make components of these converted objects to be reused in other projects. And it's all very fast and flexible.

So within formZ you can work with regular object (made from extracting lines, surfaces and primitives, etc.), Sub-Division surface objects and tools that work on a per-object bases and NURBS objects and tools like MOI but extended. And they can all be combined.

The NURBS tools in formZ are very powerful and can do a lot of things. Check out the first four videos in my post above.

Of course it's not cheap, costing 3X the price of MOI, but a lot more reasonable than many other apps.

RobertH,
I think formZ have no all necessary tools for real polygonal modelling. For example it has circularize tool, that will create circle from polygons to make holls?

Mixing Sub-D and Nurbs is probably the way to go, I can't wait Max Smirnov work to see how it turns on real projects.

I do not care about the lack of editing, in practice, editing a sub-d cage model from an advanced model like a car body is a nightmare too.

Andrei,

Sure, with a circle tool (three types: one point radius from center, two points diameter, three points: 1 center 2 on edge) set tool option to 3D extrude (six types: 2D surface, 2D wall, 3D extrude, 3D converge, 3D wall, insert opening) and create a cylinder. Move cylinder through object (if you didn't create it in the right place to begin with) and boolean difference, pick object first then cylinder. This works for all objects regardless of surface type.

With planer surfaces (flat) just set one of the circle tools to the insert opening tool option (2 settings: through solid mass, through entire object).

Besides circles there are squares, rectangles, ellipses, and polygons with 3 to however many sides you want (can be changed dynamically) and drawn free form shapes.

RobertH,
I meant this:

Here's a link to Rhino training for making a model of a BMW 5-series:
http://www.mpavlos.biz/index.php?ab=5

He also sells models on his site. Here's a link to his car models to give you an idea:
http://www.mpavlos.biz/index.php?am=3&pr=2

Andrei,

I'm not sure what you mean here ...

I though the advantage of T-Splines and PowerSurfacing (PowerNurbs) is that you had a nurbs model that could be edited easily using the polys.

I used PowerSurfacing plugin in SolidWorks. If I wanted to change the shape of the nurbs model that is generated, I just edited the polys as I would in most poly modelers. At least that's how it functions in SolidWorks.

See this guy! http://600v.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=48

@Frenchy,

He uses the artisan plugin for sketchup which allows you to do sub'd modelling in sketchup.

You can't create work like this without all the plugins and particularly sub'd plugin.

So it backs up what Andrei is trying to say about modelling vehicle concepts with sub'd.

His work is inspiring though.

It would be interesting to know all the plugins that he uses.
The problem I have with plugins is that as new versions of sketchup are released plugins might not be supported or work (same with blender).

<< It would be interesting to know all the plugins that he uses.
Easy : Just see the interface! ;)
At this date Artisan will not be existing! There were another one Smooth Tools ;)
Even not sure he used it at this date because there were present on the Interface too if yes!
No reason to hide it!


And you have now this free one by Thomthom! ;)



But the new paradigm in polygon modeling is now ZBrush! (The new "ZModeler" function)

Hello,

Here are some videos that may be interesting to the original request in terms of workflow.

3d-Coat and T-Splines for Reverse Engineering:
http://youtu.be/BUZE0ATWbEM

Modeling a Car with T-Splines for Rhino:
http://youtu.be/ARwhgH3uuVg

VSR Shape Modeling For Rhino Tutorial Of Audi Q5:
http://youtu.be/gT28DocJEE8

The old VSR channel on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/user/VirtualShapeResearch

The 3D-Coat tut may have some application for MoI and the scripts from Max as well, interesting stuff. The TSplines and ADSM (VSR) tuts are a little dated and you may be able to accomplish the model faster using some of the newer tools in those packages but the foundation is there.

Hey guys!
(Long post here - haven't had time to answer til now, been on vacation)

So many answers! It has taken me quite some time to go through them - checking out the software's you recommended and trying a few of them out.

Andrei:
Thank you for your insights and also your recommendation of using Sub-D's and NVil in particular. It seems like a good software. I already do use Sub-d - I have a license of MODO 801 and I have Sub-d-modeling as a part of my design process. I really like to do the initial modeling in MODO. I have spent about 4 months now in MoDo and I feel that its great for the early design phase - Push/pull polygons to create a base-mesh and to play around try out different concepts. But as this part is completed I prefer going to a Nurbs modeler to finalize things. Getting all the curves perfect and all edges/fillets exactly where I want them - because this has been very frustrating and hard for me to do in sub-d. I understand that this is because I dont have enough skills and understanding of how topology/edgeflow etc works and Im sure I would be able to do it in Sub-D one day if I just practice more, but I think its important to use a tool that _feels_ good - if you know what I mean?
I do respect your opinion, I know you are a very experienced modeler so I will take some time and try out NVil properly (eventhough I already have MODO). Im currently looking through your NVil tutorials on your youtube channel. It does look interesting.

Raoul:
Thanks again for explaining as well as showing your workflow.
I think 40 hrs sounds reasonable, especially as you were learning the tools at the same time.
Im currently trying out your workflow - building rough model in MoI first like you said, and meanwhile I just started out playing with Rhino and going through some tutorials.
Do you by any chance know any good tutorials that could accelerate my learning - except for the ones I can find on Youtube and on Rhino website? (I certainly dont mind paying a bit if they are worth it).

Mauro (M-DYNAMICS):
Thank you for your input and sharing your projects. I agree with you fully that sub-d is the way to go early on, to find the right proportions. I use MODO as well. Would be great to follow along on your upcoming carmodeling project, the ones you showed here looks outstanding – alot of attention to detail there, very cool.

OSTexo:
”Did you also happen to see the model file you could download that went along with the PDF? ”
Ah yes, there was a folder with several Rhino files. I have not tried to do the tutorial yet though. I will try to get the hang on Rhino itself first. I only played around with Rhino a little bit before, but this was in school about 6 years ago now, so I have some catching up to do :)
Yeah you are quite right, it would be beneficial to me to understand continuity since I hope to do designs for car companies in the future.
Interesting stuff there, thanks alot! Cool workflow with T-splines and 3DCoat there. 3dCoat has a lot of very creative solutions, I think we will be seeing more of that software in the future. I tried its sculpting tools abit before and it was not bad at all. I would say that Zbrush appealed to me more for some reason, I think that was due to the interface though.
But anyway, thanks alot for the links. I do wish there was more tutorials on ADSM around though.

Chippwalters:
Oh yes absolutly, being facile and very fluent in the software is my key concern as well. Thats why Im spending alot of time looking around trying out different approaches to hopefully one day find one the suits me. The dream would be to find a software that doesnt hinder or slow creativity, one that actually inspires and speeds it up.
Thank you for sharing that. I was not aware that Bulgarov uses MoI in his workflow. He is a very interesting and dedicated guy, check this interview with him I found on soundcloud, its very inspiring: https://soundcloud.com/the-collective-podcast/the-collective-ep-7-vitaly

RobertH:
Thank you for the recommendation of FormZ. I remember someone telling me about that software a few years ago, but this was the first time I actually tried it out. I was under the impression that it was a tool for architects. I have to say Im pleasently suprised by it. I watched through all the video links you posted and there seems to be an array of tools for complex form creation. I noticed alot of interesting easy-to-use tools in the deform area for example as well.

One question though which I really cant answer myself:
How would the capabilities of FormZ stand up against Rhino(+Shape Modeling) - in terms of surface-matching and controlled form-transitions?

Bisenberger:
Thanks for the link. Looks interesting, I think its a little unfortunate that its a pdf document. Would certainly be worth the 50 dollars if it was a video tutorial, now Im not so sure. I've never been a fan of reading pdf's for some reason.

PaQ:
”I can't wait Max Smirnov work to see how it turns on real projects. I do not care about the lack of editing... ”
Im not sure I follow here, are you referring to the obj-importer?

Kevjon:
Very impressive that he managed to do that in Sketchup. Somehow all the models seem very ”boxy/chunky” I have to say.

"I have a license of MODO 801 and I have Sub-d-modeling as a part of my design process. I really like to do the initial modeling in MODO. I have spent about 4 months now in MoDo and I feel that its great for the early design phase - Push/pull polygons to create a base-mesh and to play around try out different concepts. But as this part is completed I prefer going to a Nurbs modeler to finalize things."

https://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/modo/plugins/power-subd-nurbs/

Blindfoldjump - Maybe you have looked at this already ... ?

I've used the SolidWorks version of this plugin. It works fairly well, however, it is not intended for very high number of polys.

Chris:
No I didnt know about that one. Thanks for that tip, thats definitely interesting. Do you know if applied edge-weight will stay when exporting to Nurbs?
I mean if it would keep the form.

When you export from PowerNurbs, the control mesh and edge/vertex weighting will be lost. However, the object won't change shape, so what you see as the representation of the nurbs surface when you are editing it in PowerNurbs will be maintained in the exported object.

In the SolidWorks version, there are some settings that control how the subd object is displayed. This is basically a preview of the nurbs surface based on the level of subdivisions applied to the control or base mesh. There is also a "Quality" setting for the converted nurbs surface.

Hi blindfoldjump,

Take a look at this video to see how the NURBS Blend, Merge and Extend surfaces tools work in formZ. It concludes with a look at controlling continuity across surfaces which I think you will find very useful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NzhMzZg00w


I also really like how the SketchUp equivalent of the Push/Pull tool (Reshape in formZ) works in conjunction with the Offset Outline, Offset Segment and Imprint commands work for quickly creating and modifying objects. And the way that the drawing plane will switch to whatever surface that you hover over (although it can be locked, if you want) works, which makes it very intuitive when designing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfQtABfGX3M


For any piece of software there is always a learning curve. What I found when playing around with Rhino was that it was powerful, but it was not at all obvious how to harness that power, without extensive training. Look how many people on this forum jumped from Rhino to MOI. There did not seem, at least to me, any real coherent design philosophy in it's operation. It felt really slapped together, although it looks really nice. So many things required advanced knowledge to make anything work. You could not logically puzzle them out. It just wasn't for me. So I'm also not the person to compare formZ surfaces with Rhinos', but looking at the first video will answer some of your questions about formZ anyway. Also I was really interested in T-Splines for Rhino, but there was no demo, and I read a lot of complaints in various forums about it's performance. Plus it is expensive for a plug-in, and formZ has its functions built-in.

That said formZ seems like a much better working (and learning) environment. There are a lot of really good videos explaining the various features. It's a very mature product and has a very responsive support group to answer any questions and fix any problems. I've also seen them take models that are not working properly and fix them and explain any problems for many users in the forums. Reminds me of Michael...

In addition, right clicking on any tool will give you the option to open up the manual entry for that tool, show a video of how that tool works (for many but unfortunately, not all tools) and lets you assign a shortcut key for that tool. Hovering over a tool gives an extended description. It's easy to create your own toolbars and to rearrange existing tools. Hitting the spacebar brings up a favorite tools screen (customizable), displays the last few commands you used and can reuse (the number of tools displayed is customizable) and pressing any key, while on that screen, will give you a list of all the tools starting with that key. Undo's are unlimited. All in all an easy powerful system to learn how it works.

formZ also works at a higher level than poly modelers, getting a lot more done in a shorter amount of time. HTH

Hello RobertH,

It's been years since I've taken a look at formZ, also being under the impression that it was mainly targeted at the AEC market. I see some real similarities (with workflow improvements) to Rhino+ADSM+Tsplines, with formZ Pro coming in at one third of the cost. Thanks for the info, it certainly looks like a strong contender for design work.

Hi OSTexo,

Yes, when I looked at formZ some years back, I wasn't that impressed. But since version 7, it seems like a whole new beast. With the version 8 addition of sub division tools I decided to give it another look. It does have a lot of tools for architectural design, but with the addition of the flowing organic lines used by Frank Gehry, Zaha Hadid and Santiago Calatrava. In fact it was when I saw a model of a Zaha Hadid building and the Valencia Opera House by Calatrava done in formZ that it occurred to me that it could be used for so much more than just architecture. Being grounded in architecture with many design professionals depending on it is a good thing, with a lot of the quirks already worked out and for creating the good solid geometry necessary for 3D printing and CNC milling.

It has been used in movies for miniature model design, set design, pre-visualization, etc. in movies like Minority Report, John Carter, Pirates of the Caribbean, Jumper, Transformers, Time Machine and many, many more. It is used by animators, illustrators, engineers, industrial designers, urban planners and architects. It's a great surface and solid modeler. I've only been using it for a short time but I really like it.

Looking at some of the videos of the new Zbrush 4R7 you can create some really cool models. But when you analyze the work flow in those videos it looks so incredibly tedious to get anything done, not to mention, making any significant modifications must be a nightmare. FormZ lets you quickly put together a design and easily refine it. There's a definite learning curve but it seems so much faster than some of the other modeling software that I've looked at. Try the free 30 day demo, I think you'll be impressed.

I used FormZ for about 10 years. Its very powerful and the interface is well thought out, and I miss it.

The demand for parametric models with construction history as well as an industry standard native file format forced me to move to something else (SolidWorks).

Hi chrisd,

SolidWorks looks really cool but it was just too expensive for me. How do you like it and how does it compare to formZ? Just curious, what is the industry standard native file format? Thanks chrisd.