Hi Carlos, I do eventually expect to have dimensions in MoI too, but I can't implement everything all at the same time...

There are a lot of various 2D CAD programs that can be used to put dimensions on a DXF file and print it out, so that's just a lower "pain point" right now than generating the 2D drawing in the first place. That's why the hidden line generation is an important step - it will help make it easier to have a dimensioned drawing produced since you'll be able to get a 2D drawing to mark up, and it should also help out a lot of people doing illustration type work as well.

Anyway, that's the reasoning behind having drawing generation first before implementing dimensions. I'm sorry if that prioritization does not match what you in particular need the most. Unfortunately it's not possible for me to match every single person's priorities all at the same time.

But just in general having hidden line drawing generation should be an important part of the 2D communication area.

- Michael

Hello Michael,
I understand what your are saying and i agree with all.
Naturally i respect your decisions and the path you choose. You know what is easy/fast to implement and what isn't.
Also you know what is best for Moi3D future, based on client's feedback.
I just wanted to share my opinion that the last requests/opinions were more detail focus side on not base feature.
MOi3D's 2D tools are quite important for my workflow, and it was a subject to jump in.
I'm quite happy with hidden line removal, it will help me a lot. Thanks for that.
Sorry if it sound dry or not respectfull. My english/words doesn't sound the way i whish/aim for.
Cheers
Carlos

No problem Carlos!

- Michael

Michael,
I too would REALLY like to be able to dimension within MOI but I have to admit that your approach will most likely result in a superior implementation when you do get around to it. In the mean time having the enhanced export/visualization capability will be much appreciated. Thanks for taking a logical approach and for your efforts in general. It's looking good.

Terry

Made some progress on outlines - check out the attached PDF.

In Adobe Reader you can open up the Layers panel on the left and turn the different sections on/off.

Screenshot from Adobe Reader:



- Michael

Just beautiful!

This is not a 3D PDF with rotation in 3D space ?

Seems there is a little quirk! ;) (tested on Adobe Reader 8 )
who seems not exist on your image!

Working great with Adobe Reader XI, Version 11.0.5 !
This hidden line removal should work well for a concord coach 3D model.

- Brian

Great work, layered object is a major bonus!
Ive notice there is also an alpha black and white image in the pdf file.


"""""""""""""""Seems there is a little quirk! ;) (tested on Adobe Reader 8 )"""""""""""""""""""""

That's because of the "Miter join" line property.
It doesn't show in all pdf readers though.

"Round join" wouldn't produce this type of kink.

Marc

Hi Michael,

This is looking great so far!

I noticed that there was one "group" in Illustrator, which included the bitmap and a clip for the exterior of it.
I can also see where your thicker lines reside lower in order than the bitmap, and the thinner are above, but they all reside on the same Illustrator layer.

Could you consider putting the different separate 'layers' of line types within actual groups, if it will let you do that?

Then we could just click on the group of lines and colorize it or whatever if need be.

Wow! An amazing achievement, Michael.

Can't wait to get my hands on V.3...

Mark

The layers shows up in Pdf reader and in Xara but not in Illustrator Cs6.
Not that I mind, I use mostly Xara, but it's a strange phenomena being adobe and all!

Marc

Mike,

I think Michael wants to keep MoIs layer(styles) structure.
I find it usable as it is. I imported the PDF into Illustrator CS3 and by clicking on the circle in the layers palette I'm able to select all outlines or thin lines at once. I did a bit of cleanup (removed several rectangular clipping masks and renamed the three important layers).




This looks very promising Michael! I'm looking forward to silhouettes to give the illustrations the final touch.

Marc, did you open the PDF directly in AI? I had success by importing the PDF. See my previous post.

Hi Pilou,

> This is not a 3D PDF with rotation in 3D space ?

No, it's a 2D PDF, meant for printed output.


> Seems there is a little quirk! ;) (tested on Adobe Reader 8 )
> who seems not exist on your image!

Hmmm yeah like Marc mentions above that looks like a glitch with Adobe Reader 8 on the miter join between thick short segments. I'll see about setting the outline to have round miter joints which should then avoid that.

It seems to have been tuned up in later versions of Adobe Reader too.

- Michael

Hi Marc,

> Ive notice there is also an alpha black and white image in the pdf file.

Yup, the shaded part of it comes from that image with transparency for the background. The outlines go underneath that so that the shaded image also masks out the inside half of the outline too. One problem that I see now with this though is that the outline will be masked where different objects overlap each other, the outline will only show against the full background not against other objects.


> The layers shows up in Pdf reader and in Xara but not in Illustrator Cs6.
> Not that I mind, I use mostly Xara, but it's a strange phenomena being adobe and all!

Yeah unfortunately Illustrator does not read layers from PDF files. I guess what happened is that the PDF team made layers in PDF to be very flexible and can have all sorts of optional conditions for controlling visibility. They're actually called "Optional Content Groups" in PDF. But then with all that flexibility Optional Content Groups did not necessarily map 100% to the concept of a "layer" in Illustrator. So they seemed to have kind of just gave up on it. It would have been nice if they would recognized Optional Content Groups that were being used in a simple way to map to layers in Illustrator but they didn't.

According to Adobe here, officially it's Acrobat that is the main PDF editing tool and not Illustrator:
http://forums.adobe.com/thread/509192

But you'll be able to get layers to come into Illustrator if you use .ai format instead of .pdf . Can you test loading in this .ai file into both Xara and Illustrator to see if the layers here come in ok to both?

For AI format the shaded image part is in a separate PNG file that is used as a linked image in the .ai file, if you put the PNG file alongside the .ai file when you open it then it ought to be found when the .ai file is opened.

Do the images come in ok to Xara in both PDF and AI formats here?

Thanks, - Michael

Hi Mike,

> I noticed that there was one "group" in Illustrator, which included the bitmap and a clip for the
> exterior of it.
> I can also see where your thicker lines reside lower in order than the bitmap, and the thinner are
> above, but they all reside on the same Illustrator layer.

Yeah this is because Illustrator does not read in layers from PDF files.

But it will read in layers from AI files, so if you want to get layers to go into Illustrator you'll want to use .ai format for the transfer and not PDF.

Can you test the above AI file (download both the .ai and the background image which is a linked image inside the .ai file) and see if the layers come through ok for you using that format instead?


> Could you consider putting the different separate 'layers' of line types within
> actual groups, if it will let you do that?
>
> Then we could just click on the group of lines and colorize it or whatever if need be.

I may be able to do something with making groups too, but probably having the layers come through using AI format will do what you need as far as making them targetable.

- Michael

Hi Martin,

> Marc, did you open the PDF directly in AI? I had success by importing
> the PDF. See my previous post.

That's interesting - does using "Open" versus "Import" in Illustrator for PDF files do different things with organizing the PDF content?

Using .ai format should probably work better though, can you test the above AI file and see if it comes in with the expected layer structure ok?

Then only quirk about AI format is that the image is generated separately from the .ai file itself and it's placed as a linked image in the AI file. That was the only way I could find to make an image with alpha come through into Illustrator using the AI v8 format.

So when you save to AI format there will be this "companion file" PNG background image that goes along with it.

- Michael

>That's interesting - does using "Open" versus "Import" in Illustrator for PDF files do different things with organizing the PDF content?

Yes it seems so when I open the PDF directly everything is on one layer but when I import the PDF it comes in organized.


>can you test the above AI file

It is unfortunately the same mess as opening the PDF directly (Illustrator CS3) but I can select one piece of thin line then go to Select > Same > Stroke Weight and move everything to a new layer or change the stroke width for all selected lines.

A seperate PNG file is not bad because I could treat it seperately in another program e.g. convert it to line art.

>Can you test the above AI file

Yes, this works great Michael!

I would suggest not only making each type (thick, thin, bitmap) included within a simple group of its own, but then each group placed on separate PDF layers.

This way, the PDF or AI could also be imported into Corel. Or the PDF could be opened into Illustrator right off.

Aside from that, this is very promising! I already have a lot of uses in mind just for regular work, besides the new and wonderful possibility for 3D type.


Also, if you zoom in closer the butted outline caps, which are square are more evident.
To improve the look I'll often make the nib shape of the outline stroke round, but I will also leave a duplicate with the outlines with their original square ends.
This way, the ends and joined areas look smoother, but the corners retain their sharp squares (if they are joined).

The bitmap output, by the way, is simply beautiful... something near 600 dpi on this one.

One question, is the bitmap render quality linked to the Mesh Angle value for the vid card render?