"It will be cool to see more demos of it, it's certainly going to be a lot more useful to people than the stand-alone Groboto was."

HUGE understatement. :P I loved the tech aspects of Groboto but the app was exceedingly blah.

Hi Warren,

>> "I can repair any booleans I made in MOI, to do it you have to know some repair techniques."
>
> Right, just like subd modeling.

No, the repair options are pretty different with NURBS modeling compared to sub-d because NURBS has the concept of an "Underlying surface". When you do a boolean operation on a NURBS object new trim curves are created but the original full surface is still underneath those trim curves and if you erase the trim curves it will restore the full surface.

Sub-d modeling does not have any concept similar to that, if you eliminate some portion of a sub-d mesh you can't then just remove the boundary areas of where you cut it and restore it.

- Michael

Yes, my point was that you can repair the booleans in subd, not that you can repair them in the same way. Clearly the techniques would differ.

// But what you can do with mesh that you commit? I think only sculpt.

Hi Andrei,

Further modeling, sds modeling is allways a destructive process.
For instance you often freeze a sub-d shape just to add further details, so you minimize the distortion the new detail
can create on the original surface.

It's definitivelly not something that scare us :)

(and indeed I did completely miss understood the meaning of your first video, sorry)

Hi Warren, here's an example of the kind of repair that Andrei is referring to. If you start with a surface like this:



If you then cut the surface with a 2D profile like this:



What you now have is a "trimmed surface":



Trimmed surfaces are part of how NURBS models are structured, the trim edges basically mark which areas of a surface are active and which are cut away. If you then select all those boundaries and hit delete the boundaries will be removed and the full underlying surface will be restored again:




NURBS modeling is based on this concept of a trimmed surface, while sub-d modeling is built on a bunch of individual small elements at all boundary areas, there isn't a kind of larger "underlying" element in sub-d modeling like there is in the NURBS object structure.

- Michael

WarrenM and PaQ,
As I can see the cage is pretty dense is it good for modeling? With this dense it is more comfortable to sculpt not to model, or I'm wrong?

PaQ,
> (and indeed I did completely miss understood the meaning of your first video, sorry)

No problem)) May be I have to name it a bit differently :)

Michael

I think we're crossing streams. I appreciate the explanation, but I totally get that. I know basically how NURBs work. All I was saying to Andrei was that both methods are repairable if you know the techniques. Is subd harder to repair? Sure. But it IS possible. That's my point.

Andrei

Groboto meshes were fairly dense. I believe the MeshFusion ones are going to be lighter weight. We'll see! If they aren't, well, that'll be a problem...

Another question is - does it _only_ do filleted booleans? What if you want to have sharp crisp edges in a particular cut area?

If you can't actually make sharp edged booleans and can't fillet already existing edges of a model and only ones where you are booleaning something, that seems like it could make for some kind of weird modeling constraints when you're trying to do a larger and more complex project all using that construction method.

I guess for a hard edged boolean you would freeze the result and then use regular Modo non-fusion mesh booleans on it, but then you have a non-sub model after that so what if you then want to do another fusion boolean on it again after that?

- Michael

Hi Warren,

> Is subd harder to repair? Sure. But it IS possible. That's my point.

I don't get this point - I mean if it's only whether something is "possible" that makes the difference, it's totally possible to do what the new Groboto fusion is doing by just editing a mesh by moving individual points around. But because that's way way harder it's not part of what we're discussing...

If something is easier to the point of it taking 2 seconds to do it versus a long time, that's a major difference.

Surface repair in NURBS modeling is very different than sub-d modeling repair, if you are talking about recovering a portion of a surface that has been cut away.

- Michael

Michael

Andrei said:

"I can repair any booleans I made in MOI, to do it you have to know some repair techniques.
But what you can do with mesh that you commit? I think only sculpt."

My point was to refute the idea that a subd mesh is only good for sculpting after using a boolean on it. However, NURBs are easier to repair, you're correct on that front.

Forgive me this little off-topic but i want to ask something to PaQ:

what kind of Cad Loader you use in Modo?...Parasolid based or Integrityware Power SubD-Nurbs?
What file-size can handle?

Thanks for answer,if you can :)

M

The real time booleans of the process are not destructive. Both objects remain. To "repair" the boolean, is to just remove the cutting object. No "special techniques" needed.

Andrei finds the forum "serious". Replying to every comment from other users as "your wrong", is not appreciated (By me).

You continue to make false statements based off your position, and not any real understanding of the app or technology you are refering to.

Your "challenge", goes unanswered, because you will just come back with further "what if's" that branch off in a different direction, and make it unbearable to participate.

Michael, it's neat that NURBS have the underlying surface that can be recovered, however, as mentioned with the "Commit" becomes destructive, the translation of MoI's surfaces to other apps, will result in "Shrinking the trimmed surfaces", which would destroy the original intent and construction, and require further "special techniques" to do any type of repair.

Hi M-dynamics,

Cad loader and Subd-Nurbs are 2 different beast :

Cad loader let you import cad data into modo (igs, step, parasolid stuff)
Integrityware Power SubD-Nurbs let you export sub-d from Modo into nurbs format (igs, step, rhino I guess)

I use none of them.

Cad loader meshing is terrible compared to what MoI can produce. During the beta phase I didnt get a single good import from MoI models (using step or igs). It's not a true ngones mesher either. For me it was useless.

Power Sub-D surface get some trouble with pole aera (high valence vertex). While not perfect, T-Spline gives much better result.
Maybe some progress has be done since (again I'm talking about beta version)

BurrMan,

I say "your wrong" only if you are wrong. Let me see my "false statements" pleas.

You still do not answer my question:
2. So any way if it is true sub-d modeler is it possible to import obj of any complexity without modification like retopology and modify them ?

>Michael, it's neat that NURBS have the underlying surface that can be recovered, however, as mentioned with the "Commit" becomes destructive, the translation of MoI's surfaces to other apps, will result in "Shrinking the trimmed surfaces", which would destroy the original intent and construction, and require further "special techniques" to do any type of repair.

If we are talking about Groboto, yes process are not destructive since it is inside it. But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects. And you have to export obj, to finish it in Sub-D modeler like MODO.
Moi opposite is fully featured modeler that allows to make very complex projects. So no need to "Commit" at all... Every time you can change everything inside MOI and then re-export it. I work this way no problems at all...

<< groboto : But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects.

Yes you can but it's a very hard way!

It's exactly the same way of sculpting of the old Bryce! Except of course of all the functions automatic "Bot" ! :)
Bryce 7 Pro is less than 20 $ ;) Who has also a very special UI ;)


http://www.daz3d.com/products/bryce/bryce-what-is-bryce



With Groboto By Darrel Anderson


Some "bots"

Hi Burr,

> the translation of MoI's surfaces to other apps, will result in "Shrinking the trimmed surfaces"

That only happens with SAT format export, as a side effect from splitting closed surfaces. It's something that you can turn off, if you go in moi.ini and set:

[SAT]
ExportSplitClosedSurfaces=n


It defaults to splitting turned on because I originally added SAT format for transfer into Revit and it did not like to handle closed surfaces in there.

- Michael

"""""""You still do not answer my question:
2. So any way if it is true sub-d modeler is it possible to import obj of any complexity without modification like retopology and modify them ?""""""

Your definition of a "true" sub-d modeler, is false...

"""""If we are talking about Groboto, yes process are not destructive since it is inside it. But Groboto is not fully featured modeler that allows you to make serious projects. And you have to export obj, to finish it in Sub-D modeler like MODO. """"""

We are talking about Braid art in Modo..... And by the way, You keep refering to "serious projects".. What is that?

""""""Moi opposite is fully featured modeler that allows to make very complex projects. So no need to "Commit" at all... Every time you can change everything inside MOI and then re-export it. I work this way no problems at all...""""""""""

You cannot take your MoI model into Sub-d and go to town, Without further work. You are incorrect.

Ah, but Frenchy... You're just "playing around"... Your not a real modeler like Andrei!

Hi Michael,
Yeah, with roundtripping in MoI, and possibly others, but it also happens in other formats, like Iges, with another app I have the uses integrityware translators... It just depends on how apps are handeling things.....

It's not always so black and white.....

Hi Burr, even if another app automatically applies shrinking (which if it's important to you maybe you can ask them to have a setting to turn it off), that will only affect the outer boundary. Any interior holes of the surface will always have the full underlying surface under them since shrinking only goes down to the outer boundary.

Also the outer boundary will only get shrunk down to an isoparm cut, something like a saw tooth cut like my example above will still be restorable to an even non-sawtooth boundary edge even if shrinking has been applied.

So anyway, even if shrinking is applied it does not totally negate the ability to recover areas of the surface.

- Michael