Power of LOFT!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
6037.14 In reply to 6037.12 
Hi Andrei - MoI is just primarily focused on making it possible for people to do simple shapes quickly and easily. Lumpy bumpy organic forms are not simple shapes and require a lot more skill and just general 3D spatial awareness to model. Those types of shapes are a priority for sub-d modeling programs so they have all kinds of features aimed at them. Since they are not a priority for MoI and they are a priority for sub-d modeling programs, that's one reason why I often recommend using sub-d modeling for doing organic work.

> Revolve may be a bit faster, but it is very limited versus LOFT.

Your own video seems to prove that revolve is tremendously faster - after the profile curve is drawn doing a revolve takes like 2 seconds. I timed your loft method and you took 3 minutes and 20 seconds to do it, that's 100 times longer! I don't see how you would reasonably describe that as only a minor difference...

Also beyond the speed problem there is also an accuracy problem - your method does not produce an exact sphere shape in the top area, while revolve makes a 100% precise sphere there. Yours is just sort of eyeballed to some approximate shape of a sphere.

There are so many many more steps with the loft method versus revolve for that shape that it takes a substantially higher amount of general skill and familiarity with MoI in order to do your method - if that was the only method available for producing that shape it would mean a lot of people just simply could not create that shape at all, they would have to become an advanced user of MoI just to be able to do that simple shape! MoI is all about trying to make it easier for people to do shapes like that, not needing to be an expert in order to do simple shapes.


re: Extrude - there are all kinds of other situations in addition to interior cavities where extrude saves time, like when you want to extrude on both sides, you just check the option "Both sides" on extrude to do that. If you want to make a tapered extrusion with a 10 degree slant on the side walls, the "Tapered" option makes it easy to produce that. If you have multiple separate shapes that you want to extrude you can select them all and extrude them all in one operation... It's just better at building blocky extruded shapes than loft because it's specifically focused on doing that.


Your own revolve example really clearly shows why it's not possible to just get rid of Revolve. For a lot of construction uses, it's not really of importance to be able to squish the shape into some kind of formless blob after you have created it. I understand that's important to you in particular, and for your use then that's great that you have Loft available with this technique to use for making stuff like that. Someone who wants to make an accurately formed sphere shape would not benefit from your technique though, it would be worse for that kind of a user if they only had Loft available and not Revolve. By having both Loft and Revolve both available it helps both you and other kinds of users as well.

That's one thing to try and keep in mind - other people use MoI for much different purposes than what you are using it for, including doing physical construction of models that must be accurate. Part of the overall focus of MoI is on being able to do things accurately. Again sub-d modeling has a much different focus, more on organic squishability and not really any accuracy at all. That's why I keep on mentioning sub-d modeling to you, since you are putting a high value on making squishable organic shapes, that particular goal aligns very well with what sub-d modeling is pretty much entirely focused on. NURBS modeling is generally more focused on precision as a high priority instead.

- Michael

EDITED: 17 Jul 2013 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.15 In reply to 6037.14 
Yes you are right, I think it's because I'm more concept artist less Cad engineer)
I have an idea on new version of MOI for CG artists I wrote you private message.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
6037.16 In reply to 6037.15 
Hi Andrei, I sent you back a reply - in order to keep the development of MoI more streamlined it works better for me to focus on just one single version rather than trying to juggle different versions with some features removed or changed between them.

Also again many sub-d modeling programs are already focused on that same area of doing organic modeling for CG artists... When I started MoI I made a conscious effort to try and bring some aspects of the CAD toolset to be available for artists and not so much focused on doing what other tools already were handling.

I still don't really understand why you don't like sub-d modeling, it's very squishable and makes blobby forms well like you are focused on doing with loft...

- Michael
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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.17 In reply to 6037.16 
Because nurbs is much more clear for me and have great functionality. I do not need to make a lot of extra work to make simple hole, or to make square outgrowth on organic shape. And there are a lot of other nuances that you will find modeling in these two methods. I have experience in sub-d and always come to nurbs.

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Portfolio: www.samardac.tumblr.com
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
6037.18 In reply to 6037.16 
Michael:-I still don't really understand why you don't like sub-d modeling, it's very squishable and makes blobby forms well like you are focused on doing with loft...-

agree with Michael...it's also strange,Andrei,you don't use T-SPLINES (if i understand correctely,you own Rhino+Tsplines )..??

If you insist to loft everything in Moi,you should ask to Michael to implement "close loft to point" like in Rhino....could be a useful option to speed-up workflow
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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.19 In reply to 6037.18 
Yes I had trial versions of them Rhino still use to learn some workflows.
I'm not insist just wanted to show my ideas, and let you and Michael to decide is it good or not)
Could you tell more what "close loft to point" make?
And personally I like more my method than T-Spline...)
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
6037.20 In reply to 6037.19 
Thanks God we are still free to share our opinions here...no problem Andrei..go ahead !

-Could you tell more what "close loft to point" make?-
Well..there are lot of Rhino users here and,don't forget,the person that have created it...let to them to describe that function
anyway try to do a loft in Rhino and see his pop-up options

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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
6037.21 In reply to 6037.20 
Sorry Andrei,forget pop-up menu...
when you call -LOFT- function in Rhino,line prompt command gives you a choice- POINT-
choose where you want to have the point and the loft will be closed to that point
(i'm not a Rhino user,i just studied a little so forgive me )
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 From:  wastzzz
6037.22 
+1 for removing this thread from the universe
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 From:  ed (EDDYF)
6037.23 
"... +1 for removing this thread from the universe"

Disagree. Any discussion that enlightens users on how the various tools work is a good thing.

Yes, it would cripple MoI to remove basic tools like revolve and extrude.

An analogy: I have in my shop a metal lathe and a milling machine. In theory, I can make anything on the mill that could be made on the lathe. But for making round objects, the lathe is faster and more accurate. For a hobbyist just starting out, the best investment may be to start with a milling machine. But to be profitable, I need both tools to run my business.

Ed
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 From:  OSTexo
6037.24 
Hello,

Having a variety of tools in MoI really becomes important when it comes to precision and surfacing operations. I try to use the commands that will give me the best ability to easily and precisely modify the solid when the surfaces are tweaked and revised. I would not use loft for some operations for the simple reason that using loft makes a mess of the control points and desired modification becomes very difficult if not impossible. I'm not close to being highly qualified in understanding the nuances of surfacing, but I know enough to realize that thought needs to be put into what tools will give you the best final and easily modifiable result.
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 From:  eric (ERICCLOUGH)
6037.25 In reply to 6037.20 
My 2 cents

Most of my work is geometric architecture. The basic tools like extrude and revolve handle 95% of my needs.

While I recognize the value of LOFT and use it now and then, I would not want to give up the more basic and faster tools.

cheers,
eric
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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.26 In reply to 6037.24 
OSTexo
>I would not use loft for some operations for the simple reason that using loft makes a mess of the control points and desired modification becomes very difficult if not impossible.

It's because you use Loft style - Normal and Profiles - Auto. With - Loose, Exact you will have the same amount of points as extrude have, and a lot less then sweep or network. And any modification is very simple.
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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.27 In reply to 6037.20 
M-dynamics if I understood right it loft from curves to point. If it so it is good option)
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 From:  OSTexo
6037.28 
Hello,

I guess it depends on the model you're trying to build and the surface quality you're trying to achieve. Both number and the position of control points play into it. I guess the pure loft method is OK for blobby models that do not have to fit any particular constraints but that might miss an important point of having a tool like MoI, where you are able to use a variety of equally beneficial tools to achieve both a precise and easily modifiable result. I can see using Loft only how you can quickly get into a very bad spot where you are unable to change one area of a model without changing another area that you wanted to keep untouched. I know this through my own experience, and have discovered and been helped to find different ways to achieve a more desirable result with a variety of tools.
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 From:  shayno
6037.29 In reply to 6037.3 
Extrude in this case is very fast
You do not need to boolean out the holes as you can just grab all the shape and text profiles and extrude straight up or down
the holes are formed automatically from the solid

This was for the beginning of the thread with the 5 sided extrude that Michael did
shayne
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 From:  niko (NICKP100)
6037.30 In reply to 6037.18 
Very good idea with the "loft to point"!
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 From:  wastzzz
6037.31 
The tools that have to be used come from the thinking process you have in mind to achieve the result in the cleanest (and most correct) way possible.
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
6037.32 
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 From:  Andrei Samardac
6037.33 In reply to 6037.32 
M-dynamics, good example, thanx)
Michael, it would be good to have "loft to point" in MOI.

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Portfolio: www.samardac.tumblr.com
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