Hi again everyone, thank you so much for the fast replies! Great consumer service and a great community :)
On my end I wanted to make sure to provide a more precise example to clarify things, hence the delayed reply.

I did test the CP scripts mentioned and they are very interesting - they certainly are close to what I am trying to achieve, but I find that there is a bit of a clunky feel about them, in the sense that they require to juggle between different views, and they also (obviously) modify the orientation of the regular floor grid, which I find to be detrimental to spatial perception.

Again, trying to explain it all in words is pretty tough so I put together a quick video using the spline toolset from Max2009. (the spline creation process is pretty solid in that program ; however MOI is a far better option when it comes to surfacing said splines, hence my interest :) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm5qDIncqP0&feature=youtu.be

I hope it shows what I mean. Basically, every time you see the XYZ manipulator disappear to be replaced by a faint red L shape I am actually toggling to screen mode to make control points edits in a freeform way, all in perspective view. It allows me to organically control the behavior of that backpack/saddle shape and make fine adjustments according from viewing angles very different from X Y and Z. Meanwhile, the main world grid remains a standard floor, meaning that it gives me a good frame of reference to shape the form in space.

Now I understand that the same end object could have been achieved by projecting trim curves onto the surface of an elongated sphere - but my point is that in order to "sketch" the preliminary guidelines of such an object, being able to work like a sculptor bending wires in space can be a good production boost.

I hope it makes sense :)


(And even if this end up being not useful as a MOI feature ... simply starting the discussion is always interesting :) )

<< like a sculptor bending wires in space can be a good production boost

yes but why not create surfaces (or volumes) then move the points of the curves geneartors for a real time feed-back ?
(it's like this in Moi ;)

Hi Pior,

> Basically, every time you see the XYZ manipulator disappear to be replaced by a faint red L shape
> I am actually toggling to screen mode to make control points edits in a freeform way, all in
> perspective view.

How do you toggle the mode, is it by pushing some kind of shortcut key?

I could see adding something for doing that, but the reason why I haven't focused on it so far is I don't really like that kind of very hidden feature where basically someone would not be at all aware of it without doing some kind of special tutorials or training sessions or things like that. There are some things like that in MoI too but it's sort of a general philosophy to try and avoid it.

And again, really the focus for MoI is much more on 2D curve drawing which is so much easier for people to grasp more intuitively. The kind of 3D point tweaking and squishing and sculpting that you are showing in that video requires a lot more advanced type of spatial awareness for people to use successfully - it's something that's not really very approachable for people who are trying to learn how to do 3D modeling from scratch.

Also on top of that, the kind of topology that you create with that kind of sketching can then be difficult to fill in with NURBS - that kind of "construct the complete outline" method of drawing an object is more suited to polygon mesh modeling techniques rather than NURBS techniques - to use NURBS modeling effectively you usually do not want to be explicitly drawing all the 3D swooping outlines for everything directly - much of those outlines should be coming from intersections between different surfaces rather than being directly drawn. That's when the NURBS toolset is being used to its best advantage.

So that overall technique and workflow that you are showing there is much more suited to polygon modeling really, and polygon modeling is where you will get more of that kind of sculpting and squishing feel that fits with what you want there.

NURBS modeling just has a lot different focus than that - more on precision, applying cuts to objects, driving things primarily by 2D profile curves, .... so MoI being a NURBS focused modeling system is more focused on those kinds of things rather than being focused on things that would work only in a polygon modeling environment instead.

Hope that helps explain why what you are asking about has just not been a big focus area for MoI so far.

- Michael

Hi Pior,

> Now I understand that the same end object could have been achieved by projecting trim curves
> onto the surface of an elongated sphere -

Yes, the NURBS modeling way to generate something like that would be something more like draw some profiles, create a surface through those and then cut away material by doing Trim from a separate 2D profile curve from a different direction like this:










NURBS modeling works best when you model what looks like one big unbroken surface out of one single big surface sheet, and unless it naturally has a 4 sided boundary to it the easiest way to get totally smooth surface shaping is to initially create an extended surface like I've done here and then cut away material, rather than trying to go "patch by patch" and try to fill in an irregular outline directly.


> but my point is that in order to "sketch" the preliminary guidelines of such an object, being able
> to work like a sculptor bending wires in space can be a good production boost.

The problem is that NURBS modeling just does not work as well for that kind of an approach as compared to polygon modeling - poly modeling works fine because it's easy to fill in outlines since you can connect up polygons in any kind of topology that you want and it all gets melted down.

NURBS modeling is very different from that, there is not any automatic "melting down" of surfaces just because you join them together - surfaces are modeled more exactly and the best way in NURBS modeling to make something look like one unbroken smooth surface is to actually model it as one unbroken smooth surface that then gets trimmed.

If you like the kind of 3D sculpting like process, a polygon modeling tool is just fundamentally more suited to that type of workflow as compared to a NURBS modeling program. NURBS modeling operates more like "construction" not so much like "sculpting"...

- Michael

Now Select the "triming curve" : Call View Points and move them as you want : the result form will be actualized! ;)
(if History is well enable)

So it's like a sort of sculpting in "real time"

Hi again, and of thank you so much for the extensive reply and taking the time to provide examples. Again - great customer support :)

Regarding tweak mode : yeah, in pretty much every regular 3D program it is universally enabled by switching the reference system and/or the manipulator system to "screen" (reference system options like world, screen, local and parent are usually visually indicated in a drop down list in the UI). In my case, I simply have a shortcut script toggling that in, in addition of hiding the manipulator for visual clarity (no need to have the X and Y direction indicated when in screen mode). I personally use alt-t for it (t as in "tweak") but of course it varies among users. I think the term "tweak" was first introduced back in the Mirai days but I might be mistaken.

It's very interesting to hear about the user psychology side of things, that's for sure - for instance, I come from an architecture background (but was drawing a lot on paper at the same time), then moved to character modeling and now totally focus on character design and prototyping, and I find such quick, easy and intuitive manipulation systems to be totally necessary - but it is very true that I did not care for that kind of stuff back in the Autocad days when all I needed was to draft elevations and accurate projections. (I actually gradually left that aside because I felt that CAD introduced high precision drafting too early in the design process, at the cost of creative iteration, and ended up doing most of my uni projects on paper, but that's another story :D )

I think that the reason why I tend to think that MOI could benefit from the kind of feature discussed earlier (not just for point manipulation, but also for transformation at the object model) is because I am getting the feeling that the app is already much more intuitive and, in a way, "free-form" to use than anything out there - it feels smoother than Rhino, more fun than Max, and so on. Also I notice that there is an improved object manipulation system in the app now (allowing to rotate objects intuitively thanks to nice on-screen manipulators, bypassing the need to place reference points and axises in "CAD-style" fashion) so I feel that there is somehow a push in the direction of free-form manipulation. BUT! I also understand that keeping a straight roadmap and vision for app development is crucial and screen-space manipulation might simply not fit in that scheme, which is totally fair and I fully understand that.

Regarding polygon modelers : unfortunately, they are not as smooth as they seem to be :/ Of course there are alot of great things possible with them, but a general trend in the game industry now is to roughly block out things out of "virtual clay" in Mud or Zbrush, then export that to Max/Maya or specialized retopolgy programs to trace control edges on top, and then only at the end, produce the regular subdivision mesh with regular polygon modeling. This is a very solid workflow for actual asset production, but not so efficient when it comes to the rapid prototyping side of things where all that matters is fast iteration with the art director.

I personally might just end up with an hybrid workflow combining the above - I still have to experiment further. (I gave the MOI obj imoporter/converter script a try a while ago but IIRC it was importing every edge as a spline as opposed to displaying a shaded/ghosted object, which was too busy visually for dense meshes)

On a slightly off topic note (but still on the subject of rapid creation) : is there any plan for a greasepencil/sketch tool in MOI ? For instance, it would be great to be able to sketch a freehand product design straight within the MOI interface in the ortho views, and then work on top of such a ghosted sketch to draft the actual source curves for the clean NURBS model.

Thanks again for the great suggestions and discussion !

Oh, I forgot to mention : I totally agree that the construction example you provided is, indeed, the most clean and accurate way to ultimately produce that form in proper NURBS - no doubt about that :)

I think what I am trying to get at is that the video I posted is more about "refining the idea" (like, holding the object in one's hand to observe it from all angles, and making minute adjustments accordingly to balance it based on a rough idea sketch) rather than building it accuratley ; I consider these two stages of the design process to be quite separate (yet informing each other). As you say, these "edge curves' would not be very loftable or trimmable. They would however work okay using the Network command - and even tho it would likely produce pinching and continuity problems, this is often good enough for my needs :D

Unfortunately and after years of searching I haven't found a great versatile (and fast !) environment to fit such needs ... IHeartSketch came close but unfortunately never got released and doesn't have any surfacing tools anyways ; Sketchup came close too but is quite stagnant ... and even sculpting programs like Zbrush or Mudbox just feel too heavy handed for the job. I also found an experimental university research focusing on modeling 3D forms from line drawings only but unfortunately it doesn't run on modern computers ...

I still have to investigate MOI further as there might be some tricks that I am not aware of that might already be doing what I want :D Looking forward to that!

<< is there any plan for a greasepencil/sketch tool in MOI ?

I suppose not nearly but what not use something like that?
Make a screenshot and use Fotosketcher (free) http://www.fotosketcher.com/ (French creator ;)

or save your object in SKP format inside Moi for the Free Sketchup ? ;) (hundred of styles!
http://www.sketchup.com

Or in AI format inside Moi for the crazzy XARA Xtreme 5 (it's free to the 29 April!!!
http://www.xara.com/us/specialoffers/designer/


Ps Have you remark that you can use a pen graphic in Moi 3D for draw your curves ? ;)

Hi Pior,

> Regarding tweak mode : yeah, in pretty much every regular 3D program it is
> universally enabled by switching the reference system and/or the manipulator
> system to "screen"

re: "Regular" 3D programs having that - please keep in mind that really there are a vast array of 3D programs focused on engineering and mechanical design that completely do not work like that. It's very much the "animation and rendering" type 3D programs that operate like that, not CAD programs... And MoI is actually a CAD program - it is a kind of mutant CAD program that is trying to make the CAD toolset useful to a different set of people than just mechanical engineers, but it's still fundamentally a CAD program though.

Reading down a bit more it sounds like you're aware of that though! I guess you mean that CAD programs are not "regular" ? ;)


But MoI isn't really intended to be used for character design, it's much more focused on building man made type objects and not so much organic sculpted forms. So just the primary focus of the tool is not really very aligned with your particular work.


> BUT! I also understand that keeping a straight roadmap and vision for app development is
> crucial and screen-space manipulation might simply not fit in that scheme, which is totally
> fair and I fully understand that.

Well, I don't think it would really particularly hurt anything to have it, it's just that it's also not really of much benefit for the typical kind of workflow that MoI is focused on, (emphasis on 2D curves, "construction" oriented process rather than "tweaking and sculpting" orientation).

I can certainly add it as some kind of special mode that you engage when you set up a particular shortcut key script. That will end up being used by only a couple of people and maybe not even that because like I wrote previously it just does not best suit the NURBS construction workflow to try and build a full 3D empty wireframe with complex boundaries initially, the best workflow for NURBS modeling is one where many of the edges are not all directly drawn by hand but instead result from intersections and cutting.

So there's just a fundamental break between the kind of workflow that you're trying to do there and the kind of workflow that works well with NURBS... And MoI is focused on NURBS modeling so that means MoI is just not likely the right tool for your particular kind of a job...


> Also I notice that there is an improved object manipulation system in the app now (allowing
> to rotate objects intuitively thanks to nice on-screen manipulators, bypassing the need to
> place reference points and axises in "CAD-style" fashion) so I feel that there is somehow a
> push in the direction of free-form manipulation.

Yeah this is the edit frame that was added in v2, it helps to get a sort of Adobe Illustrator type 2D vector illustration feel in the 2D curve drawing area. It's a much nicer manipulator to use for 2D drawing than the poly modeling style one because it's so low profile, just going around the outside of your selection rather than taking up screen space right smack in the middle of everything. That means that you don't need to have special modes or keys to turn it on or off, it can just stay on all the time...

This 2D manipulator was a much higher priority than a 3D poly modeling type one because of the whole workflow focus on using 2D curves for driving most of the design.


> On a slightly off topic note (but still on the subject of rapid creation) : is there any plan
> for a greasepencil/sketch tool in MOI ? For instance, it would be great to be able to sketch
> a freehand product design straight within the MOI interface in the ortho views, and then work
> on top of such a ghosted sketch to draft the actual source curves for the clean NURBS model.

Well, there is a brush stroke type vector sketch tool under Draw curve > Freeform > Sketch - it's for drawing an actual curve though and not just doing raster markup.

I'd love to have a raster paint program embedded directly in MoI for doing concept sketching right in there but the amount of work involved in doing that is prohibitive.

There is a feature for placing in a background image for tracing over, that's available under View > Image, so the simple way to do that kind of a thing is to just do your quick concept painting in Photoshop, save it out as an image and then bring that image into MoI as a background image. There are different options for drawing the image underneath everything to or also to make it transparent and draw on top of everything giving that kind of ghosted sketch type thing that you are mentioning.

- Michael

;)

Hi Pior,

> I think what I am trying to get at is that the video I posted is more about
> "refining the idea" (like, holding the object in one's hand to observe it from all
> angles, and making minute adjustments accordingly to balance it based on a rough
> idea sketch) rather than building it accuratley ; <....>

Yeah currently MoI is not really very focused on this area of refinement or tweaking of 3D forms directly. Currently the focus is much more just on being able to construct an initial shape at all, and there is still more stuff to do just in this area first before I'll really focus very hard on tweaking and refinement.

Eventually I do want to have a deeper history mechanism where you'll be able to set up various 2D curves as I showed above to use for the construction, and then be able to edit those curves and have the final result update. That will then give tweakability while still using that 2D curve driven workflow.

That does exist to a limited extent in MoI currently - you can edit the 2D curves that went into a surface creation command like extrude, loft, or sweep and as you edit them the result surface will update, but this updating will not persist if you do further edits to the surface like doing booleans or trimming of it. In the future that's what I want to extend.


> Unfortunately and after years of searching I haven't found a great versatile (and fast !)
> environment to fit such needs ... IHeartSketch came close but unfortunately never got
> released and doesn't have any surfacing tools anyways ; <....>

Unfortunately it's very difficult for a computer algorithm to do the same job as your human judgement and intuition when it comes to filling in a wire outline.

Did you ever check out FreeDimension? I'm not sure if it's still being developed but it's something kind of along the lines of what you are looking for I think..... EDIT: I guess it's gone, their web site does not seem to exist anymore.

- Michael

Hi again Michael !

I think I was reading about your future plans for a deeper history structure a little while ago - that sounds really great, can't wait to try it! It seems like one of the big, important features that will take MOI to the next level.

(Oh and yes - by "regular" 3D programs I meant environments like Max, Maya and XSI as opposed to CAD oriented solutions, for lack of a better word :) )

Regarding the overall subject of intuitive shape creation, it is indeed a bit of a holy grail really ... Sculpting programs are great at organics, but even tho their hardsurface toolsets are steadily improving, it all feels all lumpy to work with. I didn't hear of FreeDimension before, looks interesting (there are still a few videos floating around Youtube). It's a bit of a shame they they closed access to the program, as it was indeed quite promising. According to their new website they seem to be working on a new version, so who knows, it might make a comeback. Anyone here has a copy of the old version from back when it was available ?

Ironically I find that the Network tool in MOI is quite great at solving "random" surfaces defined by their edges as opposed to generated from trims and booleans ; sure enough it often causes pinching and twisting but as a previs tool it is great!

When it comes to sketching object thumbnails, I sometimes use Ink2go over my 3DSMax window - It's a screen annotation software with decent enough sketching tools. But of course having the rough sketches elegantly integrated in the 3D creation environment would be extremely practical.

Anyways - I sure keep a close eye on MOI, since all the features you've been adding always make a lot of sense without sacrificing ease of access and simplicity. Great stuff !

Hi Pior,

> But of course having the rough sketches elegantly integrated
> in the 3D creation environment would be extremely practical.

We have some users doing this within MoI right now, is this what you mean? http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=5539.1

~Danny~

Hi,

Maybe it could be nice if tweaking points of a 3d curve would be constrained by the view instead of cplane....
Maybe as an option?



There is also the option to blend lines in 3d space, which is quite useful to explore 3d curves.
You can move the generating curves or it's points afterward and blend will follow.





Marc

Danny - that's pretty awesome ! I was actually originally referring to sketches as in, rough sketches from the front, side and top views, but the example you linked is even better :) I did try it and it does work ; I just had a few issues with the freehand sketch tool Repeat option turning itself off, and also the CPlane alignement options felt a little rough for the sketching process to be really fluid (I still have to experiment further - Ideally, a great way to orient the CPlane in the context of spline sketching would be to pick 2 points in space, then rotate the plane around this line direction until it reaches the desired orientation. and then of course, being able to incrementally move the CPlane in XXZ (world) and in a freeform manner in perspective. A CPlane manipulator could help too - but that's a whole other can of worms :D)

Marc : yeah, pretty much - simply being able to move existing points (and full objects too) in view/screen space would be a sweet thing to have (having real time scene mirroring too, as it would make the whole roughing out process pretty brilliant). But yeah as Michael pointed out it might not fit with the overall and current goal of MOI. But then of course there will always be people bending the rules and using the tool in unintended ways :)

I thought I might aswell resurrect this topic again now that v4 is in dev.

Here's a good example showing someone with a ton of experience with the program, yet still running into the same issue that I run into when it comes to screen space placement of objects/components :

https://youtu.be/lmiCOGKZ7q0?t=180 (3:20 shows the result being very different from what the user intended, leading to him having to undo and try again from another angle more favorable to the transformation he is attempting. Screen mode would completely bypass all that :) ).

I think this is a good example showing that even when embracing the "CAD-like construction" paradigm of MOI, one would still benefit from being able to adjust the position of components in screen mode, without any other constraint.

I hope this makes sense !

Hi Pior, well v4 is at the very end of its development cycle so it's not really a time for experiments right now. There is a lot of information earlier in this thread about why screen space manipulation isn't currently a focus for MoI.

- Michael

Hi there Michael ! That does make complete sense of course. If anything I am glad to have at the very least brought the topic to your attention.

- - - - -

So, without going the route of a screen-based manipulation mode ... is there a way at this time to display some sort of direct world space XYZ manipulator, at the very least ? (I actually tend to avoid the use of manipulators in 3d software as I find them distracting, and tend to rely fully on kb shortcuts instead whenever possible ; but in the case of MOI I do believe that a simple barebones Move manipulator would help quite a bit.)

Either that, or maybe a script/command that could be assigned to a shortcut, allowing to move a selection by a given amount of centimeters on one specific axis (as opposed to having to manually activate and use the regular move tool, or having to go into an ortho view to grab and drag there).

Overall I think this is the common underlying topic of my remarks (both this one here as well as the one about the unneeded highlighting of components) : the MOI UX design is very proactive when it comes to walking the user down the branching paths of possible inputs (for instance : clicking a few times to gradually go down from object mode to edge or face mode ; or similarly, having the user "hunt around" the screen with the mouse until the desired X, Y or Z Straight Snap axis gets selected). But in the case of a user knowing *exactly* what they want to do beforehand, this paradigm gets mildly frustrating because it introduces unneeded options interrupting the flow state.

For instance : if I know in advance that I want to move a selection up on the vertical axis, being presented with 2 other directions picked up by the Straight Snap mode along the way gets irritating because in my mind these options were already ruled out - therefore having them flash on screen somewhat gives the impression of going backwards.

It's a little hard to explain but I hope this makes sense !

Nudge ? 4http://kyticka.webzdarma.cz/3d/moi/#Nudge