seems so simple, but...

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 From:  peter46
5400.1 
Hi all,

I tried to model this simple form all day, but can't seem to get any result. Tried with revolving, sweeps etc.. I'm new to the program so I must be missing someting.
Can anyone help me with some advice?

Thx alot!

ps: you see this model in a 3d package screenschot, so you probably think "he already has it, why asking help?" :-) this is because i need to recreate it in MOI, the model i got for cinema 4d (my 3d package) had errors all over it.

Kind regards,
Peter


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 From:  Michael Gibson
5400.2 In reply to 5400.1 
Hi Peter, can you please post the results that you did have already with the revolves and sweeps like you are describing? Did you have some difficulty with just one particular area of the model?

Is the problem that you're trying to build the entire model in just one revolve or just one single sweep? The model that you show has some various different piece to it, so you will need to build it up in several different pieces that then get combined, not just all out of one single sweep.

So for example this portion here could be done by an extrude of a rounded rectangle outline:



This portion could be done with a loft between 2 different sized profiles:



This round portion here could be done with a revolve:




Usually each part of your model that has its own kind of shape will be built separately and then you can use boolean operations to combine the pieces together.

If you could post the 3DM model files of your previous attempts, that would help to give you some tips on what might be going wrong with your previous approach.

- Michael

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 From:  peter46
5400.3 In reply to 5400.2 
Hi Michael,

Thank you for your fast answer.
The approach you described is the one i tried. The specific problem is the upper part of the model. What I have now is the bottom (wich is a extruded rectangle wth rounded corners) and the middle part (wich are lofted rectangles). But the top part, i can't find a solution for that. If I use a cilindrical shape and boolean that into my existing shapes, I can not get the exact shape like in my reference model. there the top is rounded, but also curved on the side. Also, If I boole for example a cilinder in my shape, the fillet command doesnt work anymore.

I have attached my scene. Again thank your for helping me out.

Kind regards,

Peter
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
5400.4 In reply to 5400.3 
Hi Peter:
..i did a quickie with the -Network- tool just after your first post
maybe don't match exactly what you want but could be an alternative
you can manage the curves and do some cuts..and so...
i attached the example file

M


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 From:  peter46
5400.5 In reply to 5400.4 
hi Michael,

That's great! Thank's a lot! I tried this network tool, but it didn't do anything. Now, with your curves setup, I seem to get it.
Is there any specific reason why you made it so big? (grid is very small on your file) Or that's just coincidence i presume?

Greetz
J
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 From:  Michael Gibson
5400.6 In reply to 5400.3 
Hi Peter, the top part looks like it is made up of 2 separate curved pieces, one that goes like this:



And a separate piece running like this:



So to build something in 2 pieces like that would go something along these lines - build one main tube piece and a side profile:





Then do a boolean difference slicing the tube with the side profile - select this piece and discard it:



Then the remaining piece is I think the base form that you're looking for:




You will probably run into some difficulty filleting that specific kind of situation though - that's a "disappearing fillet" case where the fillet erodes down to zero area at the very top crown point, the fillet engine in the geometry library that MoI uses has some difficulty handling those particular kinds of cases, so that will make doing some of the rounding steps more difficult, you would probably need to do some alternate methods of putting in the rounded fillet pieces, like trimming away some area and using the Construct > Blend tool instead.

So possibly that's where you're running into some problems, that MoI's fillet engine is not good at handling this particular type of situation that you happen to be building.

- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
5400.7 In reply to 5400.5 
Or also another fillet technique that can work in cases where the regular edge-based filleter fails is to break the model apart into individual surfaces, and then select 2 surfaces at a time and do the fillet.

That will perform a surface/surface fillet operation which can sometimes build some fillet surfaces where the edge-based filleting mechanism can get confused.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5400.8 
Another speedy try :)

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 From:  Michael Gibson
5400.9 In reply to 5400.6 
Hi Peter, and actually probably the easiest way to finish the fillet is to export to a different CAD program that handles that kind of case better than MoI, do it there and then import the file back again.

A couple of programs that can help with that are Autodesk 123D (free: http://www.123dapp.com/123d) or ViaCAD ($99 http://www.punchcad.com/p-9-viacad-2d3d-v8.aspx).

What you'd probably want to do is have the initial shape have all sharp corners initially, like this (also see attached 3DM model file):



Then bring that in to 123D or ViaCAD and do the fillet there along the entire sharp edges - unfortunately this particular case just flat out does not work very well in MoI currently, and using a separate tool for doing it is likely to be the easiest method.

Hopefully more cases like this will work in the future as the people who make the geometry library that MoI uses continue to tune it up. This particular "disappearing fillet" case comes up fairly often so I will ask them about it specifically.

- Michael

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5400.10 
an another :)

---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
5400.11 In reply to 5400.10 
Pilou:last one is perfect..Bravo' !

--------------
Peter<<Is there any specific reason why you made it so big? (grid is very small on your file) Or that's just coincidence i presume?>>
I did a quick sketch without using your model.I see you are new here so i just show you other alternatives:In future you'll discover many ways to get the same shape

----------------

Michael<<Hopefully more cases like this will work in the future as the people who make the geometry library that MoI uses continue to tune it up. This particular "disappearing fillet" case comes up fairly often so I will ask them about it specifically.>>

disappearing fillet is an old problem,i found also bool-diff disappearing and so when model start to be more complex and the build of it is not always correct
while you are improving Moi with new good tools the other people don't run like you..i mean:sometime it's like a Ferrari with just one gallon of fuel in the tank
when the geometry library fails i have a try exporting in 123D to do the same operation,if fails there too i understand i followed a wrong workflow but most of the times it works
so maybe ( i say maybe) could be better to have a stronger library,that is "the core" of a modeling app,than have new tools...but unfortunately it not depends by you

EDITED: 15 Sep 2012 by M-DYNAMICS

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 From:  Michael Gibson
5400.12 In reply to 5400.11 
Hi Mauro, booleans are generally a strong area in the geometry library that MoI uses, but fillets not so much. Fillets basically have a larger chain of complex operations that they need to perform and so correspondingly there is more that can go wrong.

Basic fillets work pretty well in MoI but things that require special case handling (like disappearing fillet is one example) tend to be problematic.

- Michael
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 From:  Rich_Art
5400.13 In reply to 5400.10 
Very nice Pilou


Peace,
Rich_Art. ;-)

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 From:  peter46
5400.14 In reply to 5400.13 
thx all for you help!! Quite nice community in here!

@ Pilou: Is it possible you could very shortly describe what you did, stepswise? It look very interesting!

Kind regards,
Peter
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5400.15 In reply to 5400.14 
Sure :) But it's only one method, surely so many other!



The key for trim anything is that ;)

A curve (surface, volume) for "trim" a volume!
With Trim = the volume stay "Open"
With Boolean Diff the volume stay "Closed"

Above i have only used a curve :)





PS A circle is sufficient even the Diff Booelan here trim the 2 sides of the piece
Just kill after the function the hole that you don't want (it's 3 clicks if it's an inner wall volume, one click if it's a surface ;)

For avoid that you can take a cylinder :)

EDITED: 16 Sep 2012 by PILOU

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 From:  Barry-H
5400.16 
Hi,
I have managed to produce the model using extruded solids and fillets.
The shelling was a problem but it can be done by shelling
the base and the top section separately
Hope this of some use.
If you want the file let me know and I will post it.

Barry
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 From:  peter46
5400.17 In reply to 5400.16 
Allright thank you Pilou! super! I feel like my knowledge has been amplified by 3. I thnk it can be amplified by another 6000, but lets go "step by step" :-)

@ Barry-H: Thank you to! It would be nice indeed to post your file, just so I can learn from it (yeah i'm addicted to knowledge :-) )

Greetz!
P
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 From:  Barry-H
5400.18 
Hi Peter,
attached is the file you requested hope it helps.

Regards
Barry
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