I wonder!

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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
5260.1 
Hi,

I've been playing around with TSplines a bit and I wonder if "some(s)" of the tools (or commands) it offer could be implemented in Moi. Say for example, we have a "hole" in a surface and we want to fill it with say a g2 "patch", currently though it's possible to do in Moi in a few possible way, one as to have fairly advanced skills and knowledge of Moi to do it and I wonder if this could be simplified say with a more "advanced" blend command for example. I know it's your intention to work on blend, so maybe it's just question of time before this one is available.

Another example I could give is the tsPipe command, we can give it basically a tree like set of curves and it allow us to basically do whatever we want and it joins everything pretty nicely. Again, one can do the same in Moi but it's a lot of work in comparison.

They are a few more commands (and or ideas) from TSplines I can think of that would make great addition to Moi. I know, any of this would be a lot of work for you and quite possibly many of these command aren't applicable to a NURBS only program like Moi.

Just some thoughts,
Felix
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5260.2 In reply to 5260.1 
you can yet emulate some tsplines functions with the Flow function ;)
Flow
Select result + Target
Enable History
Show Points
Move points as you want ;)

EDITED: 17 Jul 2012 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
5260.3 In reply to 5260.1 
Hi Felix, the "hole filling" one is definitely something I am planning on working on for MoI, if you are referring to the Rhino N-sided Patch command. That's actually a command in base Rhino, nothing to do in particular with T-splines.

The T-splines toolset involves a fairly different style of modeling than NURBS modeling, it's focused on creating things from a sub-d polygon cage. It's an entire toolset and workflow that revolves around that different type of modeling approach and there are a lot of different pieces involved and that makes it not particularly feasible to just cherry pick one individual feature from there.

An N-Sided patch command though is one that will fit in MoI's toolset, the only reason why it's not there yet is that it's fairly difficult to make a good quality one but I do expect to dig into it at some point here.

- Michael
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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
5260.4 In reply to 5260.3 
I can't wait!

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 From:  bemfarmer
5260.5 In reply to 5260.3 
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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
5260.6 
Ah... the sacred scrolls of Multiedgeablendibus.

The true way to help your models reach that holy plane (or surface) of ascension and enlightenment.
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5260.7 
Ah damned, these articles were written in France but not iin French! :)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  Mike K4ICY (MAJIKMIKE)
5260.8 In reply to 5260.7 
Je crois que c'est dans 'le Grec', Pilou. ;-)
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5260.9 In reply to 5260.8 
@ Majik
Du grec de l'Alpha à l'oméga! :)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
5260.10 In reply to 5260.3 
Michael,

though I have to use TSpline via Rhino, I basically use Moi to create the curves or whatever I need to start with and then use only TSplines commands. Though I don't understand much of the inner working of Nurbs and SubD, it seems like TSplines provide somekind of bridge between the two.

As I said before for example the tsPipe command seem like something that may be possible to do in Moi using a combination of commands, say we have 2 curves setup to look like a "Y", using TSpline "pipe" command seem like one operation where you set the radius at any point along both curve similar to what a Moi sweep could do and the "joint" is made like magic in TSpline but it could be done using a few commands in Moi as well. In other words, it's a "pipe" command on steroids.

As another example the tsSkin command seem to be a kind of "Network" command on steroids as well but it as some limitation, the structure of curves needs to follow some rules.

Basically, I just wonder if any of TSpline ideas and or commands could be somehow implemented in Moi in some form or another. I know you usually try to implement command that I would caracterise as "atomic" and you do an awsome job at this. The way I see it, TSpline command are not "atomic" to say the least, they are almost a "program" by themselves or to use a similar analogy, they are "molecular".

I started this in the hope of starting a discussion, for me Moi is the only software I use to create either 2D or 3D models of the furniture pieces I want to build and lately I began to be interested in making my own "appliqués" I soon realised my preferred tool (Moi) wasn't the best choice for this kind of work.

I come from a generation that was promissed that we could speak to our computer ("A la Startrek", Captain Kirk that is) and make them do the hard work of figuring out how to do the things we wanted them to do. Today, after almost half a century, this is still day dreaming and I don't see anything like this coming through in the near future. But with tools like TSplines and Clayoo I begin to see that one day the Gran Canyon between Nurbs and SubD will be bridge and not just in Rhino. I just hope this day will come sooner then later and that I will not have to part from my favorite program.

Regards,
Felix
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 From:  Michael Gibson
5260.11 In reply to 5260.10 
Hi Felix - those TSpline commands are based off of that particular type of polygon modeling methods - things like tspipe form a cluster of polygons around the spline curves, it's then those polygons that form a sub-d cage. So that's using sub-d modeling techniques there - it's not very easy for MoI to use sub-d specific modeling tools without having the whole set of tools including the mechanism to convert from sub-d cage into NURBS...

Pretty much all the TSplines commands are about manipulating polygons and using that type of modeling workflow, and it's a pretty different type of model structure and workflow than what MoI is set up to use. So basically I don't really see how it would work to take just one isolated feature from TSplines and implement it in MoI, any of those things that you are mentioning rely on pieces of a larger toolset in order to function. It's not very feasible to implement just one individual piece of those things, implementing the things you are asking about there would involve implementing a whole lot of new stuff all at once that works in combination with each other.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to experiment with that and may get a chance some day in the future to do so, but it would be a really big undertaking so it's just not something that is going to be feasible to happen anytime too soon. If you need to do that style of modeling, it's just a different style than what MoI is currently oriented towards and so you need to use some other software than MoI to do that particular kind of work currently. The whole workflow for manipulating that kind of data is very different than what MoI is focused on - the sub-d approach is all about manipulating a bunch of polygon cage points and edge loops is sort of more like sculpting and squishing and not as much like drawing or illustration like MoI's more curved based construction workflow is oriented towards.


tsPipe and tsNetwork are not hole filling commands though, was there a different command than that which you were thinking of about for the hole filling, was that the Rhino N-Sided patch command (which is not a T-spline specific command) ?

- Michael
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
5260.12 In reply to 5260.11 
Michael,

you know I have difficulty explaining things in english but I understand perfectly (this time) that TSpline does what it does using a polygonal approach. I also understand TSpline can "translate" those Poly surfaces to Nurbs surfaces that are joined in such a way (g2 continuity I believe) that the resulting object is nice and smooth. That in itself would be just great if Moi (or some other stand alone program) could do that. I know, I dreaming awake again.

Though it works on poly, some TSplines command seem to do things that we could do in Moi as well but with much less ease and many more steps. For example, if I'm not mistaking Moi's boolean commands do quite a lot of stuff in the background, like findind intersection, trimming, deleting some surfaces and joining back what's left. You said yourself that you'd like to improve the blend and network commands (amoung others), even if we forget about TSpline, I just wonder if the idea of a Moi "super" command could create a Nurbs surface over this network of curves for example.





Again, this is just an example, here from the set of curve in red, I wonder if this dino looking thing could be done in Moi using a single command (from the user perspective) just as it can be done in TSpline.

Those images come from the TSpline manual, I just hope I won't have problems.





Here again another example, I did most parts of this in Moi and used another program to add some details and smooth things out a bit. It's no longer a Nurbs object so I'm stuck with using some other program to put this in its place, in this case another object I designed in Moi. I know it's my problem but I just hate having to use anything else then Moi. By the way, TSpline can't convert this to Nurbs either, it's most likely it would be a pain to convert this back to Nurbs anyway. I might as well take the big bad tasting pill and do what's left in a poly program. Not only this but every time I'll want to reuse this model, I'll find myself doing a new model Moi, I'll have to export it and do what's left to be done outside of Moi again.




To sum it up, it's not really TSplines I'm interesting in but the main idea that we could possibly have more "powerful" commands in Moi, lets say "inspired" by say the kind of things the tsPipe command can do and of course it could be any other idea from any other program as well.

Thanks,
Felix

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 From:  futagoza (STEFAN)
5260.13 In reply to 5260.12 
>To sum it up, it's not really TSplines I'm interesting in but the main idea that we could possibly have more "powerful" commands in Moi, lets say "inspired" by say the kind of things the tsPipe command can do and of course it could be any other idea from any other program as well.

Hi Felix,

your wish reminds me of the very old Electric Image NURBS Modeler (EIM) which probably would do what you are after.
It was an ACIS based NURBS modeler and had those ÜberNurbs tools included which allowed a user to model in a NURBS
environment with "SubD box modeling technique" too. EIM could import however no polygon meshes like Rhino/TSplines etc.
does, but you could convert/export those ÜberNurbs as surfaces or solid in .iges and .step format. It had also advanced
surfacing tools like "matching" surfaces etc.

But as i understand, like Michael said, it would be a big undertaking and i also assume, in case we ever would get something
similar in MoI what you propose, that the price tag of MoI would be getting pretty high, which probably not all users would like...

Here's a small image of the UI of EIM showing an ÜberNurbs object, dated back from 2002. EIM was last bundled with EIAS
5.0 (Electric Image Animation System).



Hope my reply is not to much off-topic!

Regards
Stefan
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
5260.14 In reply to 5260.13 
Eim
It was the favorite tool of Cristobla Vila ;)
http://www.etereaestudios.com/
see this thread A moment of Inspirations
http://moi3d.com/forum/messages.php?webtag=MOI&msg=5263.1 ;)

EDITED: 18 Jul 2012 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
5260.15 In reply to 5260.12 
Hi Felix,

> I also understand TSpline can "translate" those Poly surfaces to Nurbs surfaces that are joined
> in such a way (g2 continuity I believe) that the resulting object is nice and smooth. That in itself
> would be just great if Moi (or some other stand alone program) could do that. I know, I
> dreaming awake again.

That would indeed be great to have that function in MoI, but what I've been trying to describe is that there is quite a lot of work involved to get just that function working so it is not something that is likely to happen anytime soon.

It's just a fact of life that things that require a lot of work and time to accomplish are not easy for me to work into my schedule, I only have 24 hours in the day! :)

For the time being MoI is focused on a different style of workflow than the type of stuff that you are showing - at this time MoI is simply not the right tool for the job for these kinds of things, you need a polygonal type modeling approach to do all these things you are asking about here. MoI is not right now focused on a polygonal type workflow.


> I just wonder if the idea of a Moi "super" command could create a Nurbs surface
> over this network of curves for example.

The main way that I would think to accomplish that kind of branching structure would be to form a polygon structure for it, but of course that requires all that type of polygon handling infrastructure that I've been mentioning will take a lot of work to include in MoI.


> Again, this is just an example, here from the set of curve in red, I wonder if this dino
> looking thing could be done in Moi using a single command (from the user perspective)
> just as it can be done in TSpline.

The exact same thing applies here as above - the main way that I could see to do that would be to use a polygon construction mechanism.

Basically all those T-spline specific examples that you are mentioning all are suited for a polygonal type construction approach, because that's the kind of technology and workflow that t-splines specifically targets.


> To sum it up, it's not really TSplines I'm interesting in but the main idea that we could possibly
> have more "powerful" commands in Moi, lets say "inspired" by say the kind of things the tsPipe
> command can do and of course it could be any other idea from any other program as well.

Felix, there's no doubt that there are a lot of cool concepts in Tsplines. The thing is they all revolve around the particular kind of polygon modeling workflow and mechanisms that t-splines is specifically focused on. It's a big area of stuff and MoI is not focused on that same kind of process. If you need that kind of process right now MoI is not the right tool for the job, if you need stuff that works best with a polygon modeling workflow then a polygon modeling program is the best fit for that.

Basically I don't see how I could replicate those kinds of tools that are entirely designed for polygon generation without having polygon based methods to do it. Somehow you seem to be asking "how can I do polygon modeling in a non-polygon modeling tool" ... The answer is that doing polygon modeling in MoI would require adding a bunch of polygon modeling/sub-d type tools and infrastructure.

I'm certainly glad that you like MoI so much that you want to do everything inside of it! :) But right now that's just not really possible - MoI is not currently focused on those particular styles of model creation, it's focused on a different style of modeling that works well for other kinds of objects than what you are showing here.

- Michael
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