fillet trouble again

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 From:  laurent (WINGCHUN)
4914.1 
hi all

i'm fighting since yesterday to have fillet on this model.
i've had all kind of result except a good one. we can model very quick with MOI but if i had to spend so many time to "just" have fillet (when i succeed) it doesn't make sense.
here is one result i have that cause trouble. but i have had all kind of others strange result.
i have tried so many way to have fillet on this model without success, now i really don't know what to do, and i wonder if i will always have so many troubles to have fillet or if this is because i'm a beginner with MOI. i can't use 123D because i'm on osx only. Is there another app that i can use to apply fillet on MOI model with osx ?



Michael : No offense in this post, really. i'm just very frustrating for now to be stop by the fillet function since all the rest is so easy to use in MOI

regards
Laurent

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 From:  mjs (MSHIDELER)
4914.2 In reply to 4914.1 
Laurent:

The thing that is frustrating about fillets is trying to figure out work arounds, modeling steps leading up to the fillet may be causing the geometry to have issues, etc.

Different packages handle them differently too so try not to get too annoyed that you cannot use 123D on your machine. I can promise you that someone using 123D will come into a situation that 123D cannot handle but MoI will.

We would run into the stupid modeling issues at times in my previous career all using Solid Works Professional. Work arounds would include: fixing the model in Rhino then reimporting back into SW to finish it; or using the free version of ProE (this one goes back quite a ways) then reimporting the model to finish; or sending the model to a friend or professional contact and have them look at the model at try to add a needed feature or fillet with their package and then reimport into SW so I could finish the work.

Sometimes I would just have to "explode" (for lack of a better word) the model into surfaces, fix or add the feature that I need as a surface, then try to restitch the surfaces into a solid again which even that required me to use Rhino or some other tool or even exporting it out of SW as a non-native model then importing it again and letting the auto-healing option work its magic.

Just knowing what I know about MoI I would stick with it as overall it is pretty easy to use and allows one to model some pretty awesome geometry.

Pretty much any 3D package can get you painted into a corner but with the MoI UI being so clean and simple I sure wouldn't trade it away knowing that a much more complex package that is harder to use and more time consuming to arrive at the same place can also get you in a bind with something as simple as a fillet.
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 From:  laurent (WINGCHUN)
4914.3 In reply to 4914.2 
hi mjs

i'm not saying that i will stop using MOI. I still want to buy it as soon as possible for me.
i talked about 123D because i remember someone going from MOI to 123D to make fillet (as it seems to be more easy in 123D) and going back to MOI.
The thing is how should i model a watch for example in moi to be able to have fillet everywhere it's needed ?
In the software i use for polygon modeling and rendering (modo) there is no option to make fake bevel at render time so i need to have real fillet. On a watch for example, if i want to make close up product shot for rendering i absolutely need this fillet to be there.

anyway i'll stick with MOI for sure. i just need fillets :)
Thanks for taking part mjs :)

Laurent
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 From:  PaQ
4914.4 In reply to 4914.3 
Hi Laurent,

It's great to see you here.

Fillets will be your nightware now, whatever the package you use.
I can only talk about 123D, and a little bit Rhino (demo), but none of them are the perfect solution.

For example 123D can handle complex scenario, but will also introduce (sometimes) invalid surface, or broken continuity that you will discover later (too late) in the modeling process.


Later in you learning precess you will discover that you can also do fillet 'by hand', by substacting tubes and blend the resulting surface. It's time consuming, and not very clean, but it works.
Try to search turorial from Magic (MAJIKMIKE) on the board here. He will show you lots a good tricks.

As for the poly vs nurbs workflow, some stuffs are easier in poly, other easier in nurbs ... I will not say I produce model faster in MoI than Modo, but when working in MoI, I often end with a much more superior version, surface quality speaking, with sharp and clean reflection lines ...

Dont give up :)
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 From:  laurent (WINGCHUN)
4914.5 In reply to 4914.4 
hi Paq

glad to see you to !!
yes i understand that it is a difficult task when it comes to fillet. Just frustrating when you don't understand the technic behind the tool and you think "it doesn't seem a difficult fillet" and then it end to be a nightmare. i think my expectations where to big about this subject. I sure need to learn how all differents tools are working to make better constructions that will help when it come to fillet.
And it's not in my plans to give up. More the opposite in fact :). i'm so glad that we have an OSX version.

take care
Laurent
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 From:  BurrMan
4914.6 In reply to 4914.5 
What part are you actually trying to fillet?

EDITED: 19 Jun 2012 by BURRMAN

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 From:  laurent (WINGCHUN)
4914.7 In reply to 4914.6 
hi BurrMan

i tried to fillet all edges as you have made. So i started with some edges i wanted bigger fillet on it, and continue this way but i was alway stopped by some edges (or combination of edges) where i can't find any settings to succeed. i must admit that i don't really understand all the differences between different styles of fillet for now. i have read what i have found on the forum but it is still chinese to me. So i don't really know the direction to go when i'm facing troubles in MOI. It will come with training.
But i'm glad you show me that it is my mistake and something that i have not yet understood and not MOI :)
Can i ask you what was the way you proceed ?

thank you
Laurent
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4914.8 In reply to 4914.1 
Hi Laurent, well filleting can definitely be one of the most sensitive areas.

It involves quite a sequence of pretty elaborate calculations, including generating offset surfaces, then intersecting those offset surfaces, generating fillet surfaces, extending fillet surfaces and intersecting and trimming them with one another, and also generating corner patch areas where multiple fillet surfaces are colliding into one another.

The fillet engine that MoI has is not really the most sophisticated one, it is pretty decent at handling simple cases but if you have more complex corner junctures you may need to use a separate program to do the filleting, it's not one of the especially strongest areas of MoI.


> Is there another app that i can use to apply fillet on MOI model with osx ?

I think ViaCAD has an OSX version, so that could work pretty well as a companion app to help with filleting: http://www.punchcad.com/c-12-consumer-cad.aspx - you should be able to use the ViaCAD 2D/3D one, which only costs $99, it can also be a good helper program to bring in models that you want to generate dimension and 2D drawings on as well.


Now as far as the model that you posted goes, it looks like it is well constructed, and it actually seems to fillet ok in MoI as far as I can see - however you will be limited to a pretty small fillet radius, like something around 0.02 units max.

MoI's filleter will get confused if you give a fillet radius that is large enough that it cause a whole edge or face to be completely consumed away and if you go to a larger radius than about 0.02 that is what ends up happening, mostly because of some of the prior fillets that you have put on there where you only filleted some of the edges that are coming together at a common juncture like here:



Because you only filleted some of the edges that come together and left some pieces sharp, the fillet pieces will be of different actual sizes where they collide into one another - you can see that if you zoom in there:



So basically after that fillet you now have some much smaller edge fragments in your model and now that will add complexity to more fillets that try to travel along those new edges and especially if you try to use a radius that would cause that little edge to be completely eaten up it will fail.

Because filleting only some areas of a model can lead to more complex structures like this it is usually best to do all the fillets all at the same time instead of only doing a few at a time and leaving some sharp edges in the result. The exception is if you want to put in some fillets that are of a different much larger radius than other ones, then you do the large radius ones first and then all the smaller radius ones in another step after that.

But basically you can see there how some of your initial filleting has added complexity to the edge structure of your model and then that's what is getting in the way of more filleting that involves those same areas.

Your original model before doing those couple of partial fillets looks very clean and well constructed, and you should likely be able to fillet the whole thing to a larger radius than 0.02 if you did it all in one go on your original model before those partial fillets were put on to it.

At any rate if you select just the whole model (you don't need to select edges if you want to smooth everything) and run fillet at a radius of 0.02 you should see it working.

Sometimes it can be surprising how much of the model fillets can consume away, so if you see a problem with a fillet, try going to a smaller and smaller radius so you can see if a small radius one succeeds and what it looks like, especially if you have things that meet each other in sharp angles it does not take much of a radius to eat away a substantial amount of the model. So go down in stages like if the radius you try does not work, try 1/10 of that, then 1/20 or 1/50 of it, etc...

That and the "do all connected pieces in one shot" type thing can help out quite a bit. It also helps out to have clean geometry that does not have excess fragmentation in its faces or edges, and it looks like you did have that before you did some of those partial fillets, so in that area of initial construction you're doing good already. But you don't want things like a planar area of the model that is made up of 3 separate adjacent plane fragments, you want just one big plane in places like that to be more fillet friendly.


With more practice you will tend to get more of a feel for the kind of thing that will cause trouble with filleting and try to avoid those types of configurations.

ViaCAD is not bad to have in your toolbox either though - in general the fillet engine that it uses is more sophisticated than MoI's and can handle more kinds of corner patch junctures and stuff like that.


Hope these tips and explanations help!


- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
4914.9 In reply to 4914.3 
Hi Laurent,

> The thing is how should i model a watch for example in moi
> to be able to have fillet everywhere it's needed ?

Well actually your posted model is can be filleted as long as you use a small enough radius.

And for a larger radius you were pretty much all ready to do it, you just introduced edge fragmentation by doing some of those partially-sharp-juncture fillets since you only filleted some of the edges that met at a juncture instead of all of them.


So you're actually pretty close there to having the overall technique down well - sometimes the physical geometry of how fillets work can take a bit of getting used to like just the fact that the fillet surfaces from 2 "constant radius" fillets do not necessarily line up to one another when they collide into one another when the surfaces on either side are at different angles to one another.

That's because although all the fillets are made up of arcs of the same radius, when the angle between surfaces changes it will make the fillets to be constructed out of a larger or smaller piece of that same radius arc.

See here for some examples of this geometric situation:

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3150.24
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2457.2


If you don't have a lot of prior experience with how "constant radius" fillets work, it could be easy to think that any fillet surfaces of the same radius will match up physically where they collide into one another but that's not true. Once you get a bit more familiar with some of these geometric side effects you won't end up doing partial stuff that ends up fragmenting your previously cleanly constructed model so much.

You will certainly still curse at fillets plenty though even when you have more experience, it is definitely a finicky area. But you're not far off from being able to make regular stuff work better....

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
4914.10 In reply to 4914.7 
Hi Laurent,
""""""Can i ask you what was the way you proceed ?""""""""

For the model i posted, you can just select the entire model and run fillet .02.

Michael gave a good explanation. If you wanted to start doing "edge fillets", these will succeed too, but you have to pay attention to selecting "all the edges" that play into the surfaces in question. It can also eventually lead you into a corner where you are left with an edge that cant be calculated. Viacad is really good at doing these segmented edge fillets and completing a result.. If you want to start selecting several single edges and running various fillets in different areas, it will require more time spent. You will have left the push button fillet arena so to speak.
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 From:  BurrMan
4914.11 In reply to 4914.10 
Here's a quick video to show a failed edge selection, then one that succeeds.



Here's a screen grab of a single edge selection. Note that selecting just this edge will fail a fillet. But, look what would have to change for a fillet to go "only on that edge!" Selecting the little curve in the adjoining fillet will allow the filleter the knowledge to create a little cap there.



Also, if you start looking at it from a single edges picking fillet process, you can see how you can get backed into a corner. At this corner, you would need to practice more advanced, lower level modeling techniques to finish.

EDITED: 19 Jun 2012 by BURRMAN

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
4914.12 In reply to 4914.11 
Cool tricks ;)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
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 From:  laurent (WINGCHUN)
4914.13 In reply to 4914.12 
thank you all for your help.
i'll continue training.

Laurent
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