I downloaded the trial, the help is useless and obviously written by someone who doesn't like to produce detailed documentation, the videos on the resource page often don't explain anything with annotations or comments and the ones that do have annotations or comments don't explain any basics and neither do any written tutorial that I've found.

Selecting polygons or lines is confusing and I can't even get a simple extrude going and when I do I don't even know what's happening. On other occasions I manage to extrude but then it extrudes parts of other objects too, when they don't seem to be selected. On top of that, I seem to be getting yellow artifacts, when I even updated my video driver a few days ago and which is not causing any problems in other 3D software or games:

http://i44.tinypic.com/5u0cid.jpg

I also have no clue if this program is ever updated, because I don't feel confident with any software that jumps from a x.0 releases to the next x.0 release without any updates.

3D is not new for me, I've been using C4D for a while now and even fiddled with some other 3D software. I'm just getting more and more interested in nurbs modeling and that's why I'm trying this program. because I really like how smooth it performs and how "clean" the interface is. It's just that I have so many things that confuse me and there is hardly any documentation. Even this forum layout and its use is awkward.

Btw, to understand my frustration: I own two large Photoshop sites for over 8 years now. I make a habit of writing super detailed documentation and tutorials and have been praised for this many times, even in the press, so needless to say that I get really annoyed once I need help from others, all I get is poor documentation and help. I write detailed stuff NOT because I'm trying to sell Photoshop, this site however is trying to sell a $300 program. Well, if you want to be successful, then make at least some effort like I've been doing for many years (for free) to please your (potential) customers or in my case, just my visitors. To be honest, I'm almost willing to spend $200 more on Bonzai 3D just because of their excellent documentation and videos. I don't think I'm being unfair here with observation.

The fact that I'm so really annoyed should tell you something about what others might experience too. Lots of people like me don't like to dig for every piece of info spread all over the internet (reminds me of Linux), we have a life, a family, work and often little time. Why is it so hard for you to sit down for 2 weeks to produce some nice tutorials, documents (which are well illustrated) or videos? Just because you don't like to do that for a $300 program?

Hi JDonner, wow sounds like you're having a lot of unusual problems!

Maybe MoI is just not the right software for you, some of your comments such as finding this really simple structured forum (I mean come on, there's only one place to post stuff!) confusing is really unusual.... The vast majority of people, even complete novices have not had any difficulty with figuring out the forum so I don't really understand what your problem is for that part.

For selection, you just click on something to select it.

If selection is not working properly for you, then did you possibly set anti-aliasing to be forced on in your video driver settings? With some video drivers forcing that to be on at the driver level will mess up MoI's selection mechanism which relies on getting back some information from the video card to see what is close to the mouse. When that information gets forced to be kind of blurred without MoI requesting it, then that can cause selection problems.

Maybe that is the root of your difficulties - make sure you haven't modified your driver settings to have anti-aliasing forced on, leave it to "application controlled" and see if that helps.


But yes you're generally right about documentation - documentation is not my first priority with MoI, I'm much more focused on the software itself.

If you want a CAD program that has a lot more focus on documentation and numerous tutorials, you will need to go to a different company to get that level of stuff - everything with MoI (including software development, web site development, documentation, support here, etc...) is all the work of just one person so some areas are kind of limited compared to other bigger companies that have stuff like dedicated staff who only have to work on documentation and nothing else.

That may make MoI unsuitable for you.

But I would kind of encourage you to kind of generally calm down and not freak out quite to such a extensive level... If it's something like selection not working for you a simple question like "selection doesn't seem to be working right, is there anything that might be messing it up" would really do the job rather than a full scale meltdown.

- Michael

By the way this is kind of ridiculous:

> Why is it so hard for you to sit down for 2 weeks to produce
> some nice tutorials, documents (which are well illustrated) or
> videos? Just because you don't like to do that for a $300 program?

Even though it's not a major focus for me (and it is true that I do dislike working on it), I've actually spent at least a couple of months total working on the documentation.

So your idea that I haven't even spent 2 weeks is just totally mistaken...

Maybe you have gotten confused with viewing some of the various other tutorials that users have put together which often don't go quite so slowly or have voice with them.

The main tutorials that I have produced are these ones here:
http://moi3d.com/2.0/docs/tutorials.htm

Those go through step-by-step building some simple models and explain things gradually along the way. By any reasonable measure those are a good introduction...

Anyway, I'm not really sure what to tell you other than your extreme level of distress is really quite unusual and I'm not sure that I've ever seen quite this level even from people who were complete novices at just using the computer in general.

- Michael

I'd like to add my 2 cents here.
I have used many 3d programs over the last 30 years and MoI is the most intuitive program I have used. And I really like its intentionally lean UI.
The tutorials are readily available, clear, and professional modelers should be able to grasp the uses of MoI very quickly, new people exploring for the first time do.
I agree with Michael. Maybe MoI is simply not the right choice for you, JDonner.
cheers,
eric

Hi JDonner,

> On top of that, I seem to be getting yellow artifacts, when I
> even updated my video driver a few days ago and which is
> not causing any problems in other 3D software or games:
>
> http://i44.tinypic.com/5u0cid.jpg


That kind of stippling is not any cause for concern - it's caused by having 2 objects of different colors (in this case one selected and one not selected) having some partially overlapping surface area between them. You're just seeing that because you've got several objects that overlap over the same space.

Sometimes that kind of artifact is called "z fighting" - it's a normal thing that with overlapping surface area like that, that neither one is clearly above the other and so which one gets displayed on top basically comes down to numerical noise and you get that kind of display.

It's something that you'll see in a variety of other 3D software as well when you have objects that overlap right on top of each other.

So that's not anything at all to be concerned about by itself.

You may see a variety of display artifacts in the in-viewport display, the whole process depends on your video card and that kind of real time display is more oriented towards making things display quickly and not so much on making a super high quality looking result, and some artifacts are a normal and expected thing that goes along with that.

You have to use a separate rendering program to get higher quality generated images, although even with an offline rendering program you'll still probably get that stippling effect if you have 2 objects of different colors occupying the exact same space.

- Michael

Just because things don't work for me, it's suddenly a matter of "Not the right program for you"? Yeah right...sigh


I'll give you an example:

The program starts with a selection tool. I click on the center of a polygon, part of a cube. All polygons of the cube are selected. I click again; the actual polygon is selected. I click again; nothing is selected. And this is not confusing to newcomers? Why do I need to read any documentation to simply select a single polygon with a single click?

Another example: I have a cube, I select one side and I extrude; works fine. I select another side. Since this is a new selection and not an additional one like you often get in most other 3D software by using Ctrl, Shift or Alt and since I also don't see any other polygon selected than the one I have selected, since only one turned yellow, I'm assuming that the selected one, the only one that is yellow, will be affected by the extrude. To my surprise it also extruded the previously selected polygon.

Oh, but this confusion has nothing to do with the program, it just means that the program is not right for me? Bull!

I don't think there is a simpler nurbs modeler software available!

One aspect that new user may find confusing is that you don't have to press shift to add item to a selection.


Marc

I don't understand why it's done this way. Does that mean that I'm constantly forced to deselect ALL to continue??

"I don't think there is simpler nurbs software available!"

Comments like that are useless to me. That's like asking on a BMW forum who makes the best car or asking on an Apple forum if Windows is better than OS/X or visiting a Rhino forum...oh well, you get the point.

There is also a difference between a simple to use nurbs program and program that's simple to get into. I find Bonzai 3D, which I'm also trying, much easier to get into, but on the other hand, I haven't figured out yet which program is the easiest one to use in the long term. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

I think the Idea behind the selection behavior was to be able to use it with a tablet without constantly needing modifier keys.

Marc

Hi JDonner, you haven't taken enough time to understand how some of the most basic stuff works in MoI.

It's not unusual, especially with 3D programs, that you might need to take a few minutes to learn how some stuff like selection works.

In this first case what you are describing here:



That's what's called "drill in" selection - it is what allows you to select sub-objects like a face or an edge. The first click does "whole object" selection, and a second click on the same object will "drill in" and select a sub-object. Then with the 3rd click you're doing deselection, because other than the special case of the initial drill-in, a click on an already selected object will deselect it.

Also yes you're right MoI behaves a bit different with regards to selection than other programs - with MoI you're always in "multiple selection" mode, meaning you don't have to hold down shift or ctrl to select multiple things, it just always does that automatically. That's one of the features of MoI, that you don't have to keep touching the keyboard a million times a day to do basic stuff.

This is all quite clearly and simply described in the documentation selection section here:
http://moi3d.com/2.0/docs/moi_introduction.htm#selection


How is it that you expect me to spend a lot more time writing documentation when you won't even read the short introduction document that already addresses the stuff that you need to know and are complaining about?


- Michael

I still don't understand how you could think that the forum here is difficult to use... I mean it's so simple and streamlined, there's a list of messages, you click on a message thread to read it, you click on "Create new discussion" to, well, create a new discussion.

Is it that I do not have enough animated GIFs and avatar icons everywhere?


I really think that you'd be better off with Bonzai3D which you keep mentioning, you should probably give up trying to use MoI and switch to that instead.

- Michael

Are there any updates for the 2.0 release?

> Are there any updates for the 2.0 release?

No - in general MoI has a long extended beta period with a lot of tuning going into the final release itself. So with that long run up to the final release it's generally a goal of mine to incorporate fixes into that release itself rather than pushing out something that is not very refined and having to patch it up a lot afterwards.

From what you are describing, it sounds like you would prefer to have buggier final release with having to apply patches to them later on instead of solid final releases?

- Michael

I don't understand also, my question all along has been: why aren't other forums like this - simple, focused, with great search functionality.

I hope this isn't the start of occupy MOI :)

JDonner - Are you more used to polygonal modeling than NURBS based modeling? I am not talking of hypernurbs in C4D because that is polygonal modeling. MOI does not behave like that at all. It is more akin to solid/surface modelers like Rhino, solidworks etc...

It will take a different approach to achieve the same result. For instance this approach to modeling would rarely ever select a polygon or face and attempt to extrude more geometry from it. An approach with this type of software would be to start with a larger chunk of geometry and remove profiles with boolean functions or set up profiles (splines) to use as foundations to create the additional geometry with sweep/extrude/revolve tools.

The only modeler that ever really "bridged the gap" so to speak between the techniques was Amapi/Hexagon which blurred the construction methods of both polygonal and NURBS.

I don't know why the two of you keep saying that I claimed that the forum is difficult to use, I never said that. I said that it's an awkward layout. I'm pretty sure that most people, including me, find it just as easy to use as other forums, but that's not why I'm talking about. My complaint is this; why force people to get used to yet another forum layout or way of doing things, why not sticking to what most forums use, so that people are accustomed to it from the start? It reminds me a lot of Flash fanboys that force the most awkward menu layout upon their visitors just for the sake of trying to be different.

What on earth is awkward about the forum?

The layout is a list of topics going down the left hand side and then the current discussion thread in the pane to the right.

It's very simple.... It's quite curious that you'd consider it to be awkward.


Really, you've worn out your welcome here with rude behavior just starting from your first post - it seems like you will need a lot of help to get things going and just judging from your behavior in your first post I think it will be a lot of unusually frustrating effort to try and help you, so that suggestion that you give up MoI and use something else like you keep mentioning is really a good idea. Not just for you but for the benefit of all of us here as well.

Thanks very much for your attempt at using MoI and I hope that you will have better success with other software and other discussion forums.

- Michael

JD

I was brand new to modeling when I bought Moi. I have tried every program under the sun..this is the simplest..very intuitive. In the begining I watched Michaels tutorials and then just played around a lot. I started really undertanding things when I read the documentaion Michael has. It is a VERY good explanation of each command. When I finally read the documentation..lot of lightbulbs when off. Also sounds like maybe your approaching this from a ploygon standpoint..ie your mention of selcting a polygon...nurbs are totally different. My 2 cents read the documentaion..it's very helpful.

I would hate to see your post about C4D if you have these kind issues with MOI

Michael - you cant please all the people all of the time. I will say this since buying MOi in 08 and reading here alot..this the first time I have seen a bitch slap of Moi.

"From what you are describing, it sounds like you would prefer to have buggier final release with having to apply patches to them later on instead of solid final releases?"

OMG, stop acting like you're the king of reliable software....seriously!

For your information, I've been working in the IT for almost 24 years, I know all about software and as a matter of fact, I've even been a professional programmer in RPG III/IV on IBM mainframes. Some of the things you said just totally boggles my mind. Let me give you a major wakeup call son;

- a lot of beta testers aren't really serious beta testers. Often they're just curious about the new features and very few take the time to test features that they would never use themselves and often they only take take time to report bugs, if they're affecting THEIR current workflow.

- it's an indisputable fact that the greatest test for any software is the time when it's released and used by thousands or in some cases, millions of users (customers or people who use the trial version), all with different experiences, different configurations, different ways of doing things.

- the huge majority of beta testers are people who already have been using the product for quite some time. You will seldom see them bring up issues that might confuse people who are totally new to the software. You'll be surprised how quick users are, to live with or work around certain shortcomings in the software and simply forget about it over time. They often won't be the ones that point out those shortcomings, only newcomers will and the sad thing often is, when they are pointed out, the long time users often don't take those complaints seriously....after all....they got used to the shortcomings.

- all software of this size and larger contains bugs, PERIOD! Don't act like you're so much more special than anyone else, because you're not. And not only that, also your software will have a few MAJOR bugs that most definitely require an update!

- A lot of updates for a .0 release is NOT a good sign, but having NO updates at all is not a good sign either. Don't pretend that your beta test is so much better than anyone elses, because it's not. No matter which way you want to look at it; MANY potential customers DO look at the update policy of a developer, especially when they require that software for professional purposes. You're just sticking your head in the sand, because all you see is just dollar signs with every major release, updates however are seen by you as a nuisance that don't bring any cash.

I asked if there were any updates, to confirm my suspicions about your so called "support". They are now confirmed. Time to look elsewhere. Bye.

Michael

Hope you ban this guy..LOL what a troll