Marc,

true Silo is kind of an SubD version Moi in a sence. I've made a little round trip on the 3 sites and I'm still stuck on Silo site for still a while I would think.

Thanks,
Felix

Hi Felix,

> Also, at this time I'd be interested in somekind of workflow
> ideas and/or examples (newbie stuff) which would include
> using Moi of course in order to get my hand dirty on stuff
> like above one day.

Well, a good starting point is to build the frame with a sweep - draw a path curve and a profile curve like this:



Then you can use Sweep to construct this result:



That would kind of give you the base to work off of.

Re: Sub-d modeling - yeah sub-d modeling is more of a full 3D process, and by its nature it involves manipulating a lot of points. It doesn't involve 2D elements as much and it kind of has a higher overall learning curve to get comfortable with it I think. Having good strategies for how to approach topology tends to be important. So it would not be surprising if you needed to apply a kind of longer sustained effort to get good at it than it would take with MoI. It's a good technique for building more organic type stuff though.

Brush-based displacement modeling like 3d-coat or sculptris I think has a somewhat lesser learning curve to it compared to sub-d modeling, those may possibly be a better fit with the kind of results that you want to get. It's hard to say exactly because that kind of work doesn't quite fall so exactly in any one camp...

- Michael

I have used Modo to import a MoI model and then add a new object to the model which is made with Sub-Ds. Usually a part that is hard to create in MoI with Nurbs. Then you end up with a sort of Hybrid model. Whatever app you use, you have to be able to selectively subdivide the model. You shouldn't sub-divide any of the stuff you imported from MoI.

Hi,

I'm a bit sorry Michael, I didn't want to say anything about how I would approach the problem and influence anyone by doing so. Basically, I would approach this kind of work by a divide and conquer strategy. By this I mean I would break the model apart and of course I would use Moi for all non-organic work a bit like you suggested here. Until recently, I would have said that I would have tried to create the rough shape of each element of the model most likely in Moi, bring it in some other app and add details there using various technique like say displacement mapping, box modeling, sub-dividing, sculpting etc.

But now, I don't see myself moving vertices around all day for weeks if not months each time and for each little item in a project. I know enough about myself, to know that I wouldn't be satisfied with my work if I where to use box modeling as my main tool, add to this that my hands aren't as steady as they use to be.

Maybe there is a way in between?

Thanks, I'm very greatful for the links, I learned a lot,
Felix

Hi Felix,

> But now, I don't see myself moving vertices around all day
> for weeks if not months each time and for each little item in
> a project. <...>
>
> Maybe there is a way in between?
>

Sub-d modeling is kind of fundamentally about moving vertices around, so it may not be the right path to pursue for you.

Probably the closest thing to an in-between would be the brush-based displacement sculpting apps like Sculptris, 3d-coat, and ZBrush. Their overall process I think tends to be easier to get up to speed with than vertex tweaking for sub-d modeling, it doesn't require as much finesse and discipline with topology like sub-d either.

Of those apps, it seems like 3d-coat may be a good one for you to focus on - Sculptris may be a possibility but it's somewhat more oriented towards characters. Well sort of all these things are more oriented on characters but 3d-coat has a wider set of functionality than Sculptris (like some basic spline drawing tools I think) and is still not too expensive, that could put it at a good balance for you.

There will still be a learning curve involved, but I think a fair amount less than vertex tweaking for sub-d modeling. It's worth a good try anyway...

- Michael

Hey Felix... What CAM software are you using?

BurrMan,

I have Bob-Cad3D Pro V24 with Bob Art (not pro, maybe soon) and I have an eye also on the CNCToolkit which is basically an addin for Max type software, I intend to use it with GMax at least in the beginning. By the way I don't have a CNC yet. If I ever do it would have at least a 4 axis otherwise I don't think I'll have one. It will either be a kit or my own design, something around 3' x 5'. I intend to use it for carving stuff like I've shown above as well as true 4 axis work. If I'm not mistaking, Bob Cad offer only 4th axis indexing but I'll have to verify this.

For now I'm stuck on learning how to do the kind of 3D design stuff I intend to do with the CNC. It's not promissing though because I have basically no clue where to begin, what to use both as software and technique and how to do it, all this in an efficient manner. I know the example I've shown is out of my league for now, I just hope it won't be that way for ever.

Thanks,
Felix

Hey Felix,
BobCads 4th is indexing and "Wrapping". So it works at the surface level of cylindrical stock.. The geometry used to toolpath with it needs to be as "Unwrapped" which means the surface of the cylinder to be cut is "flat" in the viewport.. (Here's a video that may help to make it clear how it works: http://youtu.be/KCbsi5nmW8Y ) I can help you with how to use it when your ready, in the BobCad forum.. Something new in V24's BobArt is they added a 2 rail sweep. So it can do the scroll/corbel stuff you show there pretty good from 2d geometry.. Again, we can get more detailed later if you want, in the BobCad forum. Your picture is acheivable, but it's a bit complex as "A start". You might want to start with a single scroll. Then it's just a matter of stacking them together to make that picture you show. FYI

Hey Felix

Give you my 2 cents for whats it worth. Moi silo and zbrush..all you will need. The drawing you attached is very do able just break it dow into small segments of modeling. I make cnc patterns quite a bit for hobby and I found the 3 programs I mentioned will do it all. You could leave zbrush and just go with sculptris. Zbrush was one of the programs I bought a while when I really had no clue but wanted to make patterns..thank god the updates are free. I think artcam at 8k is WAY pricey..you can get Aspire for 2K..still way pricey I think for what it does vs what you can do with moi silo and sculptris. I bounce and forth between nurbs and quads a lot..I get frustrated with the two different UI's and find my self in Moi quite a bit doing silo type comands for selction movement etc..and am oh yeah.

You right the highly organic stuff is quads....for a while I tried to avoid learning polygon modelling. I found moi to so much nicer to work in...but quads have their place...like the leafs and scrolls in your picture. Once I dove in and started with simple things like an apple, pumpkins stuff like that all the basics started to click. My advice learn nurbs and quads..both have their pluses and minuses..

BTW the 4 th axis..Im soo jealous...I am helpng a guy out right now that just a 4 axis machine...

BurrMan,

thanks for the video, very instructive.

I'm sure this method is fine for true cylindrical object. For example, with a leg like below, it might be a lot easier to generate the gcode with a true 4 axis toolpathing software or better yet, a true 5 axis program. Though some learning is required, the CNCToolkit can do this easy and a lot more for free in combination with GMax (also free).

But the CNCToolkit is not a true CAM software, it basically generate a basic spline, 2D or 3D, the raw toolpath and projects it on the surface of an object you want to machine and the projected spline edited or not is translate to gcode for 3, 4, 5 and maybe even 6 axis CNC.



By this I mean the hole leg gcode as all the XYZA code and not just the XZA code. Here, (http://code.google.com/p/cnctoolkit/downloads/list) if you download the 4-axis video, either the AVI or SWF format, it shows the steps to create a 4-axis toolpath for a gunstock. using the CNCtoolkit with GMax.

I received an email from BobCad recently, annoncing BobArt PRO V24 and amoung the new features it provides a softening tool and a couple of others as well that sound promissing. Anyway, I haven't decided yet which route I'll go software wise, but Moi is certainly my first choice up to now.

Thanks,
Felix

JPALuck,

I don't have it yet, the 4-axis CNC I mean, but if I can find a relatively easy way to create the element of detail I want, I'll definitely build one.

One approach amoung many I considered, is heighmapping but the results I've seen so far where not quite satisfying. I think one of the main reason are the jagged lines, curves and basically everything else you have to live with in "paint" type program but investigating brush type programs like Michael and others suggested gave me this idea that these displaced mesh could be "easily" cleaned up (and much more I'd believe) with those kind of programs. There is also the route of heightmapping via ZSurf with could provide NURBS surfaces that could serve as building block to create pretty good raw object directly in MOI and then refine them in Sculptris or ZBrush type programs. I say all this because I'm fairly confortable with paint program like Gimp or Photoshop. I'll give this idea a good trial and maybe this will work for me.

The main reason I'm reluctant in using new programs is that I intend to build the real thing and that take me a lot of time. I know that by the time I will start a new project I'll have forgotten most of what I've learned with these new programs. But if, I stick with the ones I learned a long time ago, the effort is much less demanding. I'll even have to find time to play with Moi as often as possible otherwise my effort with it will be lost as well. I spent at least 6 month using Sketchup last year and I tried to use it lately, it's almost as if I never saw it before, I simply didn't remember any shortcuts, it's scary. Getting old is no fun at all.

Thanks,
Felix

=Felix=

I haven't decided yet which route I'll go software wise, but Moi is certainly my first choice up to now.



Hi Felix:maybe you shoud consider that in the future releases of Moi we will find a plug-in section (like Michael told us)..maybe with T-Splines????
..maybe...so you will not need sub-d anymore..maybe

Hi,

is this the same T-Slines that's available with Rhino? If it's the case then that may work for me but it's quite expensive if I'm not mistaking.

Thanks,
Felix

Yes,that is ! (i'm provoking Michael..)

Felix,

Say yourself some time and frustration and don't go down the heightmap greyscale road. The bottom line to get the results your looking for you will not get them from 2d graphics. Trust me I tried and tried..lol. I have always been an avid woodworker and tool whore, I sears one day and saw a demo for Carvewright..I was like hmm 2k ish...I can import a photo and carve it...damn I was thinking of all the cool stuff I could add to my work. Needless to say it never worked out that way. Carvewright has a propiatary file system and they have made it so anyone could do cnc...no gcode, no tool paths..just import a photo and carve away. I was completely disappointed with the results. They looked like crap as carvings go. None of the flow and contours would be right either up when was suppose to be down or vice versus. At the time in 08 I never touched a 3d program.

I became the king of photo manipulation..lol you name the program to make a photo a depthmap I tried it and wasted a lot of money on some looking for the holy grail of depthmaps. It was such a waste of time. The guys in the CW community are the kings of depthmap to cnc pattern. But the results are never that good. Some have produced some good patterns with photoshop gimp etc...but again not that good and the time involved bizzare. One of the first programs I boughtt was zbrush for the EXACT workflow your mentioning - depthmap to model to clean up/sculpt in zbrush. Never worked good. Faces for example..the people always looked like aliens with bugged out eyes, noses going inwards etc. I tried inverting etc, gaussian blurs, changing the colors of the greyscale image...it was almost impossible to clean up in zbrush.

Finally I got talking with this guy in the CW community and he was like if you want good results learn how to model with polygons. Here is site for the guitars he makes with the cw http://liquidguitars.com/ seeing his work..I knew he was right. CW came out with an .stl importer and I started making some simple stuff and was very nice and clean..contour etc EXACTLY how I wanted them. The guy who makes the guitars uses lightwave alone..he has been modeling since the 90's for a living. He also tole me avoid artscam as he calls it and aspire..he was like learn how to model and you can do anything you want in cnc.

I took his advice and started with MOI..he didn't like nurbs but hey I love this program...Then it was time to learn quads..Trust me I know what your saying about the learning curve..LOL bigtime..but you will never regret the time spent for cnc models. I look back and go man if I just nutted it down with modelling and left the photo's alone I would be that much further along..lol and a few more bucks in my pocket.

The way I do stuff today is whatever I want to make I try to think which of the two programs to start with..Moi or silo..meaning which peices are going to be faster and easier in produce the desired result. I make the peices in Moi and Silo then generally import them into zbrush and asseble the model there. I don't care about the high polycount as most cnc models have a high poly count. Export obj and then convert to .stl and carve away.

I still use photo's for reference images or a "texture"..I use zbrush lightbox alot for adding texture. I still suck at human faces but I am practicing..attached is one I am trying to do of Jimi Hendrix. I made the frame in Moi, blocked the head out in silo..brought it all into zbrush and compiled to one there...now have to sculpt to get better..lot of worked left on it. I am using a photo laid out in light box to add some detail. The other tricky part I am trying to keep this as low relief...75 in depth..makes it harder for me. Oh well its fun to learn and practice.

Other hard thing there is next to nill on the net to help model to 2.5D for cnc. I just went through the full 3d tutorial and started applying the basics I learned. Bottom line your time will best best spent on Moi, Silo and sculpting like sculptris/zbrush. Final thing that sold me was I started chatting with this guy a bit and he told me all I use is 3ds max and zbrush..some of thee nicest looking models for cnc I have seen. http://artline3d.ru

Good Luck

you have also some program like that with 2 photos gives you a 3D files of your model ;)
free for non profit project
Made by a French guy but in English ;)
http://www.photosculpt.net/

Hi jpaluck,

it's another story but on top of all that, I'm a french speaking guy and though I'm not so bad in english it is still somewhat of a pain to write, it takes me forever.

Before I go on, I must thank you for the links and your thought on my dilema, these guys do amazing work. I just took a brief look and if ever I can do stuff the quality of the artline3d guy, god would I be happy.

I'm a 100% sure that using Moi for me is not an option any more, I'm stuck with it, I just love it. Believe it or not, I kind of feel not so bad with Scultris and possibly it would be similar with ZBrush (much more potential I believe). But Silo, even if I have no doubt it's a very good piece of software, it's like riding a bike backwards for me LOL, so even if it was free I don't think I will spent more time with the free trial. I can say basically the same for 3D-Coat they both feel very awkward to me. I must add that above all my other discrepancies, I'm a lefty, and a program like Silo, even if I can remap all the shortcuts, would still be a bit problematic.

Just a tought about Carvewright, I happen to see one in action and I was very disapointed with what I was looking at but I also happen to see a piece done on oak that was more than acceptable, so for quality I assume it depends on a few things. A minus I have is that it is to narrow and lastly but not the least, no 4th-axis possible. I've got very limited space in my shop and if I put in a CNC there, it must be able to do quite a lot because a few things of would have to get out to make room for it.

I admit I had my doubt about the displacement maps and what you wrote convinced me it would be a lost of time to go that route, so thanks a million for that. So I guess I'll have to rethink all this again.

Many thanks, lots of food for thoughts,
Felix

Hi Felix,

Wood crafting very often requires some kind of artistic touch, like sculpting, bas-relief, VCarving, inalay and micro detailed surfaces that are hard to produce with a NURBS based software, and requires an SDS approach. I can't imagine an oak or a grapefruit leaf modeled starting from curves, extrusions, sweeps and so on. On the contrary, also often in such artworks there are some components (rims, structures) that are best modeled using hard surfaces techniques (NURBS). To reach your target, especially if you later need to obtain a CNC toolpath, I recommend you to try Aspire, an artistic CAD/CAM package by Vectric. It has powerful vector based 2D to 3D tools, sculpting and bitmap to 3D support to obtain very complex bas relief, that you can easily integrate in your project. Aspire also includes a good CAM software and many postprocessors that cover almost any kind of CNC milling machines and routers.
You can also consider Luxology modo to add details to your works. It is more complex and expensive compared to Silo. But it has a great advantage on other SDS based modelers. You can model in a low subdivision degree and use many tools to deform your surfaces using textures and images (for example, with vector maps, normal maps and so on): the model is then represented with incredible high details, even if the real geometry remains very light. As soon as you are sastisfied with the results, you can "freeze" the geometry, and any effect you have applied is then transformed into a real geometry that you can mill with a CNC machine. As far as I know, this feature of modo is almost exclusive.
Another advantage is the presence of a good renderer, that you can use to present your projects before their actual phisical production.
Attached you will find an image of a rendering of a particular of a furniture, done with MoI, modo and Aspire.

Good luck

- Pietro

The king of modeling for this sort of thing is ZBrush ;)
All works is Zbrush for real stone carver results!
by Tomrobs


























They use also Moi ;)


for blend with Zbrush ;)


By Nicolas

Yeah, I've been dying to buy Z-brush.....