Sub-div companion 2 Moi?  1-20  21-34

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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.1 
Hi everyone,

would you know of a sub-div type program that would make a good companion to Moi?

Of course it could read and/or import Moi exports, both 2D and 3D and a few other things as well, all this at minimal expense.

The only ones I know a (very) little about are Blender3D, Gmax and Sculptris. I also know about ZSurf which can do heightmaps on a Nurbs surface.

The main use for it would be to create "models" for wood carving kind of stuff via a CNC router and a bit of hand work. I think the work I intend to do could be classified as semi-organic or possibly just organics.

Thanks for your time,
Felix

PS If needed I could setup some images so you can get an idea of what I intend to use it for.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4576.2 In reply to 4576.1 
Hi Felix, you might look at Silo:
http://www.nevercenter.com/silo/

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4576.3 In reply to 4576.1 
And for displacement/sculpting type workflow Sculptris like you mentioned is good for that, and also in a similar category you might want to look at 3D-coat:
http://www.3d-coat.com/

- Michael
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 From:  futagoza (STEFAN)
4576.4 In reply to 4576.3 
I would second Michael's tip with Silo.

Here are nice examples for CNC wood carving models from Dasch in this thread, so you get an idea:


http://www.silo3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8869

Regards
Stefan

EDITED: 4 Oct 2011 by STEFAN

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
4576.5 
A free one : Wings 3D ;)
Some rustic on the UI (right clic for have a function) but very efficient!
Numerous files formats! Import Export not 3Dm of course because it's a polygons modeler ;)
But OBJ, STL, AI, Collada etc...
http://www.wings3d.com/

EDITED: 4 Oct 2011 by PILOU

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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.6 
Hi,

I've started looking at Silo and 3D-Coat and came across a suberb tutorial. (http://nevercenter.com/silo/tutorials/glen_minotaur/) If you're a newbie like me, IT'S SCARY, the ten part video last over 5 hours and that's by a guy with obviously a lot of experience. I can't imagine how much time it would take for me to get to even as low as 25% of is level. At least now I understand what box modeling is all about and it's a lot of work. But on the other hand, one can basically create whatever model he/she wants using this approach.

Though the work I intend to do at least for now, is most likely much less demanding, more kind of 2.5D stuff. Still, one day I'd like to do something like this for example (not to copy it but create my own of course).



Still got plenty of looking around to do (and learning) and I'm still not decided yet on which program I'll use to translate my work into gcode.

Also, at this time I'd be interested in somekind of workflow ideas and/or examples (newbie stuff) which would include using Moi of course in order to get my hand dirty on stuff like above one day.

Thanks to all for their replies,
Felix
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 From:  Marc (TELLIER)
4576.7 In reply to 4576.6 
Don't get discouraged by this particular video, Silo is one of the simplest subdivision modeler.
It's easy because it doesn't render, animate or other stuff.

Marc
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.8 In reply to 4576.5 
Pilou,

If you want you can write to me (pm maybe) in french anytime you want. I'm sure it would be much less trouble for you, trust me I know.

I went to see Wings 3D a bit as you sugested, I was going to say there is not much to see but that's because I didn't look at the right place. I'll need some time though because of these Silo tut are so huge in all sence of the word but very well done and very instructive.


Merci,
FĂ©lix
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.9 In reply to 4576.7 
Marc,

true Silo is kind of an SubD version Moi in a sence. I've made a little round trip on the 3 sites and I'm still stuck on Silo site for still a while I would think.

Thanks,
Felix
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4576.10 In reply to 4576.6 
Hi Felix,

> Also, at this time I'd be interested in somekind of workflow
> ideas and/or examples (newbie stuff) which would include
> using Moi of course in order to get my hand dirty on stuff
> like above one day.

Well, a good starting point is to build the frame with a sweep - draw a path curve and a profile curve like this:



Then you can use Sweep to construct this result:



That would kind of give you the base to work off of.

Re: Sub-d modeling - yeah sub-d modeling is more of a full 3D process, and by its nature it involves manipulating a lot of points. It doesn't involve 2D elements as much and it kind of has a higher overall learning curve to get comfortable with it I think. Having good strategies for how to approach topology tends to be important. So it would not be surprising if you needed to apply a kind of longer sustained effort to get good at it than it would take with MoI. It's a good technique for building more organic type stuff though.

Brush-based displacement modeling like 3d-coat or sculptris I think has a somewhat lesser learning curve to it compared to sub-d modeling, those may possibly be a better fit with the kind of results that you want to get. It's hard to say exactly because that kind of work doesn't quite fall so exactly in any one camp...

- Michael

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 From:  SteveMacc (STEVEH)
4576.11 
I have used Modo to import a MoI model and then add a new object to the model which is made with Sub-Ds. Usually a part that is hard to create in MoI with Nurbs. Then you end up with a sort of Hybrid model. Whatever app you use, you have to be able to selectively subdivide the model. You shouldn't sub-divide any of the stuff you imported from MoI.
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.12 In reply to 4576.10 
Hi,

I'm a bit sorry Michael, I didn't want to say anything about how I would approach the problem and influence anyone by doing so. Basically, I would approach this kind of work by a divide and conquer strategy. By this I mean I would break the model apart and of course I would use Moi for all non-organic work a bit like you suggested here. Until recently, I would have said that I would have tried to create the rough shape of each element of the model most likely in Moi, bring it in some other app and add details there using various technique like say displacement mapping, box modeling, sub-dividing, sculpting etc.

But now, I don't see myself moving vertices around all day for weeks if not months each time and for each little item in a project. I know enough about myself, to know that I wouldn't be satisfied with my work if I where to use box modeling as my main tool, add to this that my hands aren't as steady as they use to be.

Maybe there is a way in between?

Thanks, I'm very greatful for the links, I learned a lot,
Felix
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4576.13 In reply to 4576.12 
Hi Felix,

> But now, I don't see myself moving vertices around all day
> for weeks if not months each time and for each little item in
> a project. <...>
>
> Maybe there is a way in between?
>

Sub-d modeling is kind of fundamentally about moving vertices around, so it may not be the right path to pursue for you.

Probably the closest thing to an in-between would be the brush-based displacement sculpting apps like Sculptris, 3d-coat, and ZBrush. Their overall process I think tends to be easier to get up to speed with than vertex tweaking for sub-d modeling, it doesn't require as much finesse and discipline with topology like sub-d either.

Of those apps, it seems like 3d-coat may be a good one for you to focus on - Sculptris may be a possibility but it's somewhat more oriented towards characters. Well sort of all these things are more oriented on characters but 3d-coat has a wider set of functionality than Sculptris (like some basic spline drawing tools I think) and is still not too expensive, that could put it at a good balance for you.

There will still be a learning curve involved, but I think a fair amount less than vertex tweaking for sub-d modeling. It's worth a good try anyway...

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
4576.14 In reply to 4576.12 
Hey Felix... What CAM software are you using?
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.15 In reply to 4576.14 
BurrMan,

I have Bob-Cad3D Pro V24 with Bob Art (not pro, maybe soon) and I have an eye also on the CNCToolkit which is basically an addin for Max type software, I intend to use it with GMax at least in the beginning. By the way I don't have a CNC yet. If I ever do it would have at least a 4 axis otherwise I don't think I'll have one. It will either be a kit or my own design, something around 3' x 5'. I intend to use it for carving stuff like I've shown above as well as true 4 axis work. If I'm not mistaking, Bob Cad offer only 4th axis indexing but I'll have to verify this.

For now I'm stuck on learning how to do the kind of 3D design stuff I intend to do with the CNC. It's not promissing though because I have basically no clue where to begin, what to use both as software and technique and how to do it, all this in an efficient manner. I know the example I've shown is out of my league for now, I just hope it won't be that way for ever.

Thanks,
Felix
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 From:  BurrMan
4576.16 In reply to 4576.15 
Hey Felix,
BobCads 4th is indexing and "Wrapping". So it works at the surface level of cylindrical stock.. The geometry used to toolpath with it needs to be as "Unwrapped" which means the surface of the cylinder to be cut is "flat" in the viewport.. (Here's a video that may help to make it clear how it works: http://youtu.be/KCbsi5nmW8Y ) I can help you with how to use it when your ready, in the BobCad forum.. Something new in V24's BobArt is they added a 2 rail sweep. So it can do the scroll/corbel stuff you show there pretty good from 2d geometry.. Again, we can get more detailed later if you want, in the BobCad forum. Your picture is acheivable, but it's a bit complex as "A start". You might want to start with a single scroll. Then it's just a matter of stacking them together to make that picture you show. FYI
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 From:  jpaluck
4576.17 
Hey Felix

Give you my 2 cents for whats it worth. Moi silo and zbrush..all you will need. The drawing you attached is very do able just break it dow into small segments of modeling. I make cnc patterns quite a bit for hobby and I found the 3 programs I mentioned will do it all. You could leave zbrush and just go with sculptris. Zbrush was one of the programs I bought a while when I really had no clue but wanted to make patterns..thank god the updates are free. I think artcam at 8k is WAY pricey..you can get Aspire for 2K..still way pricey I think for what it does vs what you can do with moi silo and sculptris. I bounce and forth between nurbs and quads a lot..I get frustrated with the two different UI's and find my self in Moi quite a bit doing silo type comands for selction movement etc..and am oh yeah.

You right the highly organic stuff is quads....for a while I tried to avoid learning polygon modelling. I found moi to so much nicer to work in...but quads have their place...like the leafs and scrolls in your picture. Once I dove in and started with simple things like an apple, pumpkins stuff like that all the basics started to click. My advice learn nurbs and quads..both have their pluses and minuses..

BTW the 4 th axis..Im soo jealous...I am helpng a guy out right now that just a 4 axis machine...
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.18 In reply to 4576.16 
BurrMan,

thanks for the video, very instructive.

I'm sure this method is fine for true cylindrical object. For example, with a leg like below, it might be a lot easier to generate the gcode with a true 4 axis toolpathing software or better yet, a true 5 axis program. Though some learning is required, the CNCToolkit can do this easy and a lot more for free in combination with GMax (also free).

But the CNCToolkit is not a true CAM software, it basically generate a basic spline, 2D or 3D, the raw toolpath and projects it on the surface of an object you want to machine and the projected spline edited or not is translate to gcode for 3, 4, 5 and maybe even 6 axis CNC.



By this I mean the hole leg gcode as all the XYZA code and not just the XZA code. Here, (http://code.google.com/p/cnctoolkit/downloads/list) if you download the 4-axis video, either the AVI or SWF format, it shows the steps to create a 4-axis toolpath for a gunstock. using the CNCtoolkit with GMax.

I received an email from BobCad recently, annoncing BobArt PRO V24 and amoung the new features it provides a softening tool and a couple of others as well that sound promissing. Anyway, I haven't decided yet which route I'll go software wise, but Moi is certainly my first choice up to now.

Thanks,
Felix
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 From:  FelixPQ (FELIX)
4576.19 In reply to 4576.17 
JPALuck,

I don't have it yet, the 4-axis CNC I mean, but if I can find a relatively easy way to create the element of detail I want, I'll definitely build one.

One approach amoung many I considered, is heighmapping but the results I've seen so far where not quite satisfying. I think one of the main reason are the jagged lines, curves and basically everything else you have to live with in "paint" type program but investigating brush type programs like Michael and others suggested gave me this idea that these displaced mesh could be "easily" cleaned up (and much more I'd believe) with those kind of programs. There is also the route of heightmapping via ZSurf with could provide NURBS surfaces that could serve as building block to create pretty good raw object directly in MOI and then refine them in Sculptris or ZBrush type programs. I say all this because I'm fairly confortable with paint program like Gimp or Photoshop. I'll give this idea a good trial and maybe this will work for me.

The main reason I'm reluctant in using new programs is that I intend to build the real thing and that take me a lot of time. I know that by the time I will start a new project I'll have forgotten most of what I've learned with these new programs. But if, I stick with the ones I learned a long time ago, the effort is much less demanding. I'll even have to find time to play with Moi as often as possible otherwise my effort with it will be lost as well. I spent at least 6 month using Sketchup last year and I tried to use it lately, it's almost as if I never saw it before, I simply didn't remember any shortcuts, it's scary. Getting old is no fun at all.

Thanks,
Felix
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 From:  Mauro (M-DYNAMICS)
4576.20 In reply to 4576.18 
=Felix=

I haven't decided yet which route I'll go software wise, but Moi is certainly my first choice up to now.



Hi Felix:maybe you shoud consider that in the future releases of Moi we will find a plug-in section (like Michael told us)..maybe with T-Splines????
..maybe...so you will not need sub-d anymore..maybe
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