3ds max 2012 problems

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 From:  FlashFire
4567.1 
Testing max 2012 trial. It too does a terrible job of importing normals from
obj's. Fbx is ok...but still retriangulates even when you set it not to do so.....
This causes slivers...because it's tossing away any normals from moi.

Very frustrating. In both instances either obj, or fbx is set in moi for ngons.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4567.2 In reply to 4567.1 
Hi Chris - there have been problems with OBJ import into Max for a long time - that's actually the entire reason why I implemented FBX format export in MoI, just specifically to be able to get stuff into Max well.

In previous versions of Max you could import FBX files with n-gons and the n-gons were preserved.

From what you describe, it sounds like the setting for that in Max is not doing what it is supposed to? That sure seems like a bug in their FBX importer, that's something that they will need to fix up, please try to report it to them with a simple example file.

Since FBX is the primary way to get full n-gon with vertex normals data into Max, if their FBX importer is broken that will need to be fixed by them in order to get the full fidelity import working again.

Otherwise, it looks like you'll need to export from MoI with "Output: Quads & Triangles" or "Output: Triangles only" in FBX format for now until they get that bug fixed up.

- Michael
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 From:  SteveMacc (STEVEH)
4567.3 
I have the full version of Max 2012. Couple of points. There is Service Pack 2 out for Max. Came out a few days ago, so not sure this will be in the demo version. Also there has been an update to the FBX plug in which needs to be downloaded and installed.

My version, which is totally up to date imports vertex normals and ngons without triangulation. Renders perfectly.

Here is a screen shot of a MoI model imported via FBX which shows that Ngons and vertex normals are handled correctly:





Personally, I prefer Modo using LWO, however I can only do this at work as I don't have a Modo licence personally, just Max 2012.
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 From:  FlashFire
4567.4 In reply to 4567.3 
Yup....I thought my tests looked that nice too. But if you were to compare all hidden edges of polys in that
model to the original Moi model, you may see Mike is right. The hidden edges get turned in other directions
showing the poly normals don't get preserved. Some models it's ok, but others the hidden edges may overlap others.
Found this out using the stl check in Max 2012. I did download the newest fbx plugin too. Guess I'll
try service pack 2 if possible. I will try Modo too. Maybe you can post that same render with all edges in the model visible?
Thanks for you guys input.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4567.5 In reply to 4567.4 
Hi Chris - not sure if I follow what you're talking about in that last message...

In Steve's case he shows N-gons coming through and if it renders with proper vertex normals, it looks like everything is working fine for him.

Are you maybe experiencing n-gon processing problems with a few specific complex n-gons?

If so, then there may be some bug in the FBX import plug-ins processing of some particular shapes - if that's the case then it would be a good idea to send an example of the bug to Autodesk so that they might be able to fix it up.

Again, the standard advice applies - if your rendering program has difficulty processing complex n-gons then export from MoI using the "Quads & Triangles" option instead of exporting n-gons.

You can only use n-gons if your receiving software is able to handle them well - if it can't handle them well then don't use n-gons.

Previously the Max FBX importer was pretty good at handling them though, so it's possible that there is a bug introduced in a recent version that they could fix up.

- Michael
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 From:  FlashFire
4567.6 In reply to 4567.5 
Here's an example using service pack 2. Note how
the hidden edge directions differ from the way they originally were in Moi.
However in this example it does show service pack 2 handles smoothing better then before.

Maybe you are right tris and quads only work....
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4567.7 In reply to 4567.6 
Hi Chris - sorry I still don't understand exactly what you're referring to there.

In your last screenshot you seem to be displaying "quads & triangles" type output from MoI, not n-gon output from MoI, is that correct?

If you output n-gons from MoI there is no triangulation stored in the file at all - that triangulation is instead calculated at import time by the Max FBX importer.

There are numerous different ways to triangulate an n-gon, it's not like there is only 1 single correct answer for it. So it's normal for different pieces of program code to produce different triangulations from the same original n-gon - that's not a bug all by itself as long as the triangulation is a valid one.

So don't worry if the hidden triangulation looks a little different between the one that the FBX importer generated when importing n-gons versus what MoI was going to produce when MoI was exporting to "Quads & Triangles" - that's not a bug that they have different triangles generated with different n-gon processing code.

If you see triangles leaking outside of the n-gon border or totally invalid triangulations then that's a much different matter.

But so far from your description I don't understand why you are concerned about it.


Why do you care if the hidden edges of the internal triangulation matches the triangulation that MoI was going to generate if you were exporting from MoI with non-n-gon output?


- Michael
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 From:  FlashFire
4567.8 In reply to 4567.7 
Only care when they overlap a bunch in a model :( Means I have to get in there and poly edit them.
But I'm glad you stated the importer creates the
triangulation. I had wondered that. Not a programmer ;)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
4567.9 In reply to 4567.8 
Hi Chris,

> Only care when they overlap a bunch in a model :( Means I
> have to get in there and poly edit them.

If you run into triangulation problems where the internal triangulation of the n-gon has overlapping triangles where some are starting to go in the wrong orientation, then that's a bug in the n-gon triangulation mechanism of the FBX importer.

That's in Autodesk code - there isn't anything I can do myself to fix up that particular problem, you will need to send a bug report in to them to get them to improve the triangulation algorithm so that it doesn't make bad triangles like that. Doing a really robust triangulator is a fairly tricky thing so problems similar to that are not too uncommon - it may help them if you can send them an example of the n-gon that does not triangulate properly so they can have a case to test with.

If that does not happen very frequently though, you can probably export from MoI using n-gons most of the time, and only export from MoI using "Output: Quads & Triangles" for cases where the FBX n-gon triangulation mechanism had some difficulty.

- Michael
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 From:  SteveMacc (STEVEH)
4567.10 
What Michael says is right. The internal hidden triangulation is not a concern unless it causes artefacts. Don't forget that quads are internally triangulated as well. Non-planar polys can cause an issue but only for the Phong calculator. If the vertex normals are imported, then there should be no issue.

By the way you must turn off the Smoothing Groups option in the Geometry roll out. If this is turned on, the importer will discard vertex normals and calculate smoothing groups instead.

EDITED: 30 Sep 2011 by STEVEH

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 From:  SteveMacc (STEVEH)
4567.11 
Here's another screen shot from Max 2012. This is the same model from MoI. I have added an edit Normal modifier so you can see the normals. This is showing the vertex normals of one of the filleted edges and they have been imported perfectly.

Sharp edges (not shown here) have 2 vertex normals, as they should.

Incidentally, the Max importer does import vertex normals but if the same fbx file is imported in to Modo, the Modo fbx importer discards the vertex normals. The problem there is with Luxology's implementation of the fbx importer. For Modo, LWO files import correctly with vertex normal data.


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