Hi Burr, I'm pretty sure that some point after he said all that it did actually get fixed though.

I haven't heard any problems mentioned about it for quite a while after that so I think that it's been fixed for a while now.

It definitely did take quite a lot of repeated explanations and various tests sent and stuff like that until it finally got fixed. I seem to remember that some tests with the sample objects verified that it was fixed at the end of all that.

- Michael

Hello,

Maybe the thread was deleted, I'm not sure. I do know for a fact that there are continued problems with normals and Octane. I did various tests on both very simple and more complex objects, loading them into Thea and Octane and Octane always had the problem, and the problem was consistent, it just was more obvious in some models than others.

I'd like to like Octane, but they really need to fix the fundamentals before worrying about little feature improvements here and there. Until they get this fixed I can't see Octane being used by anyone who cares about their work, although it does do a decent job as a quick visualization tool, although not accurate. Here are the two sets of images, Something is seriously wrong with Octane, Thea looks good, don't you think? When I presented these images for some sort of explanation to the developers I was met with silence. I also provided the OBJ files, I got all sorts of doubletalk from Octane users about what could be wrong, anything from double sided polys to not subdividing enough, but I never got an explanation that made sense or that wasn't contradictory. I'm still waiting for a response from a developer, but I'm not holding my breath.

I have to say I am much happier with Thea, the developer took the time to respond personally to one of my requests for information, which just solidified in my mind that when you deal with Solid Iris (creators of Thea), you are dealing with a standup company.

Hi Burr, here were the posts with those test files verifying the fix:

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3472.82
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3472.87

Here's the one mentioning the fix:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3472.79


That was more than a year ago, so unless there's been some regression that problem has been fixed for a while now.

- Michael

Hello,

By the way, those renders were done with the latest stable release of Octane as well as Thea.

""""Hi Burr, here were the posts with those test files verifying the fix:""""""

Thanks Michael,
I fell asleep and missed those.... It was left hanging in my mind.. Thats good news.

Hi OSTexo - maybe it's something to do specifically with translucent/refractive materials, which seem to be used in both your examples there?

Also when exporting from MoI try using "Output: Quads & Triangles" instead of "Output: N-gons", just to avoid any potential complication from processing any complex n-gons by the renderer.

- Michael

Hi OSTexo - the other thing I seem to remember is that it didn't handle the situation of 2 faces sharing a point location in common but having unique vertex normals for each one. You'll get a mesh like that if you have the "Weld vertices along edges" option set when you are exporting from MoI.

So I'd recommend turning welding off and set "Output: Quads & Triangles" when exporting to Octane and see if that makes any difference.

- Michael

Hello,

Both were exported triangles. I tried the other options including n-gons but ran into the same problem. You are correct that if the object is not transparent / translucent it doesn't seem to exhibit these problems. From a purely consumer standpoint, this seems to be a pretty fundamental issue for a renderer, how you can ignore the elephant in the room makes me wonder about the caliber of development going into Octane.

Hi OSTexo,

> Both were exported triangles.

That should be fine - either all triangles or quads & triangles will avoid any n-gon processing issues in the renderer.

But what about welding? Did you export from Moi with welding on or welding off?

At least at one point in the past Octane had difficulty dealing with welded meshes, if you exported with welding enabled then that could be what you were running into.

- Michael

Hello,

Exported from MoI ,quads and triangles, welding off, the Octane Render doesn't look to good. This will render correctly in Thea.

OSTexo:

I believe that those are smoothing issues and not normal issues. If you make your mesh finer (by increasing the number of triangles), then it should work much better.

Hello,

So how do you explain the smooth result in Thea with the same file? The vase objects are certainly dense enough to show a proper result. It's a bug in Octane, a finer mesh does not fix the problem.

<< So how do you explain the smooth result in Thea with the same file?>>

Thea and Octane are extremely different programs and use different smoothing algorithms. IMO, one of the weaker areas in Octane is that it requires a very high polygon count when using glossy or specular materials. Thea actually announced that they had rewritten their smoothing algorithms to get rid of the terminator artifact issue that many other renderers have. You can read about it here: http://www.thearender.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4331

<< The vase objects are certainly dense enough to show a proper result. It's a bug in Octane, a finer mesh does not fix the problem.>>

I seriously doubt that it is a bug in Octane. There are hundreds of amazing images that are coming out of Octane every month. Nobody on their forums is complaining about this issue. Why don't you post your issue on their forums. There are lots of friendly users that I am sure would be glad to help.

Hello,

The terminator artifact problem is present in Octane, I tried some tests thinking that might be the problem, but it doesn't make sense that when I switch to different materials in Octane the problem goes away using the same model, does it?

I'll have to disagree with you about it not being a bug in Octane. Like I said previously I have posted the issue on the forums, and have heard nothing from the developers. I get the indication that the developers are aware of the problem, but choose to ignore it. In fact, there are numerous examples on the Octane Render forums with similar faceting in transparent materials present in objects created in modelers other than MoI. Just because someone doesn't complain about a problem doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Some of the more vocal users on the forum gave the same lines that you are typing, not enough mesh density, smoothing problem, problem with the model, which leads me to believe these users are not interested in insisting on a fix, they choose to ignore the error as well.

In short, this problem is not user error, it is an Octane error. I realize it is in beta, so hopefully someone over there will come to their senses and squash the bug causing this. I'll agree with you that it is a fast renderer, although not accurate at this point. I think the Octane developers are working at a significant disadvantage. I have to think that the Thea developers have a much greater depth of experience in this field, so it is not surprising that they are much further ahead with a relatively slower CPU based, but highly accurate product.

OSTexo,
you had a bad export to .obj and even if THEA partially correct the prob - by removing itself double vertices - you still have construction problem with Thea, Octane, Blender, Wings,... Here speaking about 'vases.obj' you send on forum, so again: give us the vase MoI model and we sure find a solution correcting the export.

I took the time to try and replicate your image. It isn't an exact match, since I don't know a lot about the specifics of your setup (rendering kernel used, lighting environment used, specular settings, camera setttings, etc), but it is relatively close.

This is a direct export/import from MoI to Octane. As you can see, I am not getting the issues that you are, so there must be something specific that you are doing that causes the issue.

Here is the Octane render:



And here is the screen capture from MoI:



And here are the export settings for MoI:

Hello,

You can't explain why it is happening so how could you possibly help with a fix? Ycarry, you were one of the posters who saw no problem with Octane, so why are you here exactly since you don't acknowledge a problem? I don't think I ever got an explanation on why every other renderer I try with this scene renders it properly, except for Octane. I'm not looking for conjecture by any user, I am truly interested in hearing for a developer why this is happening. If you'd read the Octane thread in its correct context you will see that some users acknowledge that there is a problem with Octane and transparent materials. In fact, if you look at some current images involving transparent materials on the Octane forums you will find examples with gross distortions in transparent materials, even the one a user tried to use to say my model was the problem.

Yhwh, are you using a specular material with index around 1.6? Your surface looks highly reflective on the top. Your comparison isn't close enough, a tighter fit would be to see how it looks when viewing through the top and backside of the model. I'm not doing any material mixing at all. You realize that you will see the same faceting when you zoom in on the object given your higher mesh density? Your "test" smacks of dishonesty, I would hope it is unintentional especially when you have access to my test mesh. Increasing mesh density does not solve this problem, if you zoom in even at density 3 using your settings you see the same faceting.

OSTexo:

<< Your "test" smacks of dishonesty...>>

I have a few choice words for you but I won't post them on this forum. I (as well as many others) have tried to help you on this forum, as well as the Octane forum, but all you want to do is bash everyone around. Everyone on both forums is telling you that it is your mesh that is the issue, but you don't want to listen. Everyone else must be wrong because you know better!

I tried to create a cylinder that looked like yours. I didn't have the specifics to your scene, so I did the best that I could. I think that I came pretty close. And my image has no vertex issues at all.

I read the thread that you have discussed (from over a year ago) on the Octane forums and one of the developers did reply to you. It was also pointed out that your meshes contained duplicate vertices (which will cause problems with many renderers). If you created a mesh from MoI, then you shouldn't have had duplicate vertices, so I am now starting to wonder how honest you really are about all of this.

It seems that you don't really want a solution, so at this point I have decided that you are a troll.

Good day sir.

...And a perfectly good thread catches a flame. ;-)

Sorry Mike,
I feel I had a part...

I also feel a "Making it with MoI TOO" comming on. :o