Edit styles window

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 From:  ed17 (ED17ES)
3846.1 
Hi... I was seeing the space pilot video that was posted a few days ago and i saw all the workflow very smooth until he got into the styles window. It is not bad but it could be better. I think MoI can get rid of that window. That window has 5 buttons plus the list of styles that its already in the browser panel. One possible option can be this one: the add and remove style buttons can be replaced with + - next to the styles title in the browser (very mac like). To edit a style you can double clic or right clic the style and for moving up and down you can just drag the styles.

Just a thought...

EDITED: 4 Nov 2010 by ED17ES

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3846.2 In reply to 3846.1 
Hi Ed, the bad side effect of adding in those tools to the top level of the browser, would be that there would be more clutter in it, making the basic non-style-editing operation of the browser (like just hiding/showing/selecting/locking) type stuff some degree worse than the current browser.

Most of the time people are going to be using those hide/show/select tools in the browser really frequently, and actually manipulating the list of styles doesn't happen at the same level of frequency.

So that can be an overall net loss if a "high frequency" use of something gets worse by some amount, just to try and incorporate some more stuff.

Those types of extra windows or having things on pop-out menus rather than all jammed into the same top level, is actually a way that workflow can be enhanced in a lot of ways. In other words, it's not a bug, it's a feature... ;)

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3846.3 In reply to 3846.1 
Hi Ed, sorry I had to run earlier so I didn't quite read your post closely enough - it sounds like what you are describing would not add much visual clutter since you're only talking about adding a + and - sign to the title spot.

But the problem is some of the other things you mention are already doing other things - like left clicking on an item will currently select the objects that belong to that item.

If the edit mechanism was to double click the item, that could potentially run into some trouble with that selection action, someone might end up triggering the selection action instead of the edit action for example. Double-click tends to be more feasible when single click doesn't already do something else. I actually try to avoid using double-click in general since it's kind of an awkward action.

Also right-click is also already used for something else - that also does a selection action, it makes that item the "isolated" selection by turning off selection from any other objects and only leaving that item's stuff as selected.

Additionally, having a - sign in the top that allowed for deleting an entry would seem to require some kind of selection of entries themselves within the browser. Currently everything you do in the browser acts on objects, there isn't any way to do a selection of the item itself, which would have to be some kind of additional mechanism added into the browser which would kind of compete with the existing mechanisms which perform object manipulation tasks rather than scene-browser manipulation tasks.

So that has the potential to add in a kind of "workflow clutter" by trying to overload both "list item" selection as well as "object actions" within the same UI.

Anyway, those are some of the problems...

- Michael
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 From:  ed17 (ED17ES)
3846.4 
I see now... The thing is I see MoI UI very well designed and polished and thats one of the greatest things of the program, but i feel like this area (styles) can be improved...

Other idea: I think the drag to reorder can be useful and when you add the groups feature maybe you can only drag an style over another to make a group like folders in the iPhone haha... To rename an style you can do it by clicking, waiting and clicking again like when you rename a folder in windows or mac, thats the way the item list works in Modo too. For changing the color i think double clicking can works by clicking the color swatch twice. The issue of the deleting mechanism doesnt apply to the add one. Then the plus button can work. For deleting maybe it can work like the OSX dock and apps, when you drag an app out of the dock it is removed from it.

Again just ideas, i know you can make something great improving the styles panel!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3846.5 In reply to 3846.4 
Hi Ed,

> For changing the color i think double clicking can works
> by clicking the color swatch twice.

You can actually already do this by holding down the Ctrl key when clicking on the color swatch, that pops up a color picker that lets you change that item's color.

Also another current shortcut for editing styles is if you right-click on the style line of the Properties Panel here:



That will pop up the "Edit style" dialog that lets you edit either the name or the color of the style.


Doing the color editing on a double-click on the swatch would have the same kind of problem I described earlier, since a single click on the swatch already performs a different action of assigning the selected objects to that style. That can be awkward when a single click and a double click do totally different things, because it's a bit too easy to get the single click action to be triggered accidentally.

Double clicks tend to work more easily when they are kind of an extension of what the single click does, like when single-click does a "list item selection", and then a double click edits that item which was just selected by the single click.


re: Dragging items

Dragging is another problem area because dragging on the eye icon area is already used for a different "swiping" action that lets you turn on or off a sequence of items with one mouse action. Currently dragging on the object name does not do anything but probably in v3 there will be a menu that will pop out with some additional actions on it and dragging will then let you work with the menu more quickly since you will be able to drag over a menu item and release the mouse rather than doing separate clicks to open the menu and pick the menu item.

So soon I expect that the dragging action will be all taken up for other purposes.

Dragging while in the "Edit styles" dialog would make sense, the only reason why I didn't do it in there is because it is a fair amount of work. Also re-ordering styles is just not something that you generally need to do very often, and it is just not a big target area for me to focus on optimizing things that you don't need to do very often.


> To rename an style you can do it by clicking, waiting
> and clicking again like when you rename a folder in windows
> or mac, thats the way the item list works in Modo too.

That kind of "click then wait and click again" method of folder renaming is actually one of the more awkward problem areas of current GUI systems, it's too easy for it to get crossed with double-click.

It's probably near the top of the list of problematic UI in folder interaction on desktop systems currently. So I'm not so sure it is a good idea to emulate it.


> The issue of the deleting mechanism doesnt apply to the add one.

Yes, adding in a + shortcut for adding styles is a possibility. In general though I've tried to avoid having buttons that only have icons on them and no text labels since those tend to lead to a cryptic UI. Having things on a menu that pops out tends to be clearer since the menu can describe each thing with text.

A + sign is probably not as cryptic as a lot of other kinds of little icons, but it would be a shortcut for something that is already pretty easy to access - you can already trigger Add style by clicking down on the menu launcher and holding down the mouse button, moving the mouse downwards by just a small distance to go over the "Add style" menu item and then releasing the mouse button.

Then another problem is that there is already a + sign within the Styles section title already which is used as an indicator for expanding and contracting its tree section. So that could be kind of weird to have 2 + symbols within the same thing that did different actions...


I do have different plans for enhancing the scene browser though, one will be a selection indicator on the right side of a scene browser item slot that shows whether that item has selected objects or not, there is some previous discussion of that here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3254.8

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
3846.6 In reply to 3846.5 
I would expect a Plus sign to have a child, not an action.....
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 From:  ed17 (ED17ES)
3846.7 
Great shorcuts! I didnt know about them... I think i can live with that haha. Sorry for making you explain these things. Im reading the other thread!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3846.8 In reply to 3846.7 
Hi Ed, it's also possible to set up a keyboard shortcut script that will bring up the "Add new style" dialog box, to do that see this previous post:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2987.5

- Michael
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 From:  ed17 (ED17ES)
3846.9 
Thank you! very useful!
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