MOI building objects history as GeoGebra
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 From:  adamio
3824.12 
Perhaps I miss something...Why Deeper History? When every other CAD developer has or plans to jump on the history free/direct modeling boat.

What are the benefits of a Deeper History?

Isn't MoI meant to be (the perfect choice for someone who has been frustrated with the complexity of existing CAD tools.)

EDITED: 24 Nov 2010 by ADAMIO

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3824.13 In reply to 3824.12 
Hi Adam - well, history is a pretty simple concept - just tweak operations that you have done previously and see the result update.

I'm not sure why that seems like a very complex idea at its heart?

Certainly when parts get very complex that can involve quite a lot of steps to be replayed and doing more direct surface manipulation can be good to have in that case as well.

But you need to realize that direct editing can't perform all the same kinds of operations that history can, because the direct editing mechanisms need to do a kind of reverse engineering of the geometry. That's not particularly feasible for many kinds of freeform surfaces, things like a sweep with a scaling rail modifier applied to it cannot really be automatically reverse engineered, so for example none of the existing direct modeling systems (despite having a tremendous amount of effort and man years invested in them) would be able to recreate the original rail curve and scaling rail for tweaking a freeform one-rail sweep. That's just one example.

Those kinds of direct modeling systems that you are referring to are very focused on handling more conventional MCAD features like extrusions, revolutions, stuff like that and not just any kind of surface.

> Isn't MoI meant to be (the perfect choice for someone who
> has been frustrated with the complexity of existing CAD tools.)

Yup, it certainly is - and certainly doing an automatic recording of your modeling steps to build the history without needing to do any kind of special steps would fit into the low complexity and easy to use category. I don't really know why you would think otherwise??

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3824.14 In reply to 3824.12 
Hi Adam, sorry I missed this part:

> What are the benefits of a Deeper History?

Same benefits as the current history - it would allow you to tweak construction curves to make modifications to your model.

This currently works in MoI for cases where all the input objects are in your model - for example if you do a revolve you can then edit the original input curve and the revolve will update.

Right now it is pretty easy to have the history chain get broken though, a deeper history would just enable the same kind of edits but without being broken when operations such as booleans or fillets are applied.

- Michael
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 From:  Anis
3824.15 In reply to 3824.11 
Hi Michael...

>I think that just capturing the history of your regular modeling actions will be a lot easier
>for a larger number of people to use, so that will most likely be more of
>my initial focus for history improvements.

Is this also you plan for V3 ?
We know you have many task to do, and we believe you are the best for planning how MoI should be...

Thanks :)
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 From:  adamio
3824.16 In reply to 3824.13 
I stand corrected


>>>But you need to realize that direct editing can't perform all the same kinds of operations that history can, because the direct editing mechanisms need to do a kind of reverse engineering of the geometry. That's not particularly feasible for many kinds of freeform surfaces, things like a sweep with a scaling rail modifier applied to it cannot really be automatically reverse engineered, so for example none of the existing direct modeling systems (despite having a tremendous amount of effort and man years invested in them) would be able to recreate the original rail curve and scaling rail for tweaking a freeform one-rail sweep. That's just one example.

Perhaps something like this CoCreate example ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni3Z6Tft8sQ
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3824.17 
CoCreate is the new name of Pro Engineer
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3824.18 In reply to 3824.16 
Hi Adam,

> Perhaps something like this CoCreate example ?

No, actually not like that at all.

When you watch the video that you linked to, notice how the editing done there is all of a localized nature - the operations done in there are things like pulling control points of the surface around or pulling isoparms (which is sort of like pulling a row or column of control points at once).

That's a much different kind of editing than what can be done with history. Both kinds of editing are certainly useful but history can allow for some more really broad shape changes with a smaller amount of editing effort for the right kinds of circumstances.

Here I'll give an example to help illustrate the difference for you.

Here I have drawn 3 curves in the Top view:



Then I created a piece of intestine using the circle as the profile, the inside path as the sweep rail, and the outer one as the scaling rail:



In the 3D view the shape looks like this:



Now I'm going to go in and edit just one point of a curve - the control point here on the profile curve that was used to generate the sweep:



I pulled that one point downwards:



And note what a broad sweeping change results from that one curve control point edit:



Now combine that with editing the rail and/or scaling rail curves...

One particular thing to note is that the original rail and scaling rail curves have a much more simple control point structure than the complex surface that was generated by the entire sweep.

It's much more difficult to do direct editing of control points of the resulting surface in things like this, but with history you can just edit the 3 curves you originally drew and have the model update.

And note that here you don't have to switch to some totally different set of editing tools, you just use curve editing tools to make things happen. In the video you linked to, notice that the direct surface editing tools are a whole different toolset from what was used to create the model initially. Multiple different toolsets is not a reduction in complexity, it's added complexity.

Now don't misinterpret what I'm saying - I don't think that direct editing is bad, just that it does not do all the exact same stuff as history editing.

- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3824.19 In reply to 3824.15 
Hi Anis,

> Is this also you plan for V3 ?

It's just a general plan for the future, I don't yet know exactly what will be in V3.

Unfortunately it's not very easy for me to know in advance how long it will take to do any particular feature, particularly ones that are larger.

That makes it hard for me to promise you right now which things would be in V3 and which things won't. It is entirely possible that some things that I might attempt to get done for V3 end up taking enough time that they only get part of the work done and the rest gets postponed to get finished up in later versions.

Of course I don't expect that to happen with every feature.

But this uncertainty makes it difficult for me to give you any concrete information on specific features that will be in v3 at this time.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3824.20 
Free Personal Edition of PTC CoCreate ;)
http://www.ptc.com/offers/tryout/pe3.htm

EDITED: 25 Nov 2010 by PILOU

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 From:  BurrMan
3824.21 In reply to 3824.20 
"""""""""""""And note what a broad sweeping change results from that one curve control point edit:""""""""""

Being sure to recognize that this happened "in real time" on the model... He didnt do the sweep operation again with the new shapes.....
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
3824.22 In reply to 3824.20 
Hi Pilou,

> Free Personal Edition of PTC CoCreate ;)

If you noticed PTC have revamped their software, they've dropped the names of CoCreate and ProEngineer and are now going with Creo which is, as I understand it, a module system where you buy licenses for certain modules as required for your needs and it looks like this is the entry 'teaser' module which has associative drawing also, might be a good companion to MoI, must investigate.

Thanks for the link!

-
~Danny~
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3824.23 In reply to 3824.22 
Yes history of names is some speedy life :)

The astonished part is the deformation and the "Physical constrains" in animation! (end of video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXxv2HVnunw

EDITED: 25 Nov 2010 by PILOU

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 From:  adamio
3824.24 In reply to 3824.18 
Michael Thanks for taking time to answer my question...I much appreciate that.
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 From:  adamio
3824.25 In reply to 3824.22 
The higher end surfacing capabilities did not come with PE. when I last took PE for a spin :(


>>>If you noticed PTC have revamped their software, they've dropped the names of CoCreate and ProEngineer and are now going with Creo which is, as I understand it, a module system where you buy licenses for certain modules as required for your needs and it looks like this is the entry 'teaser' module which has associative drawing also, might be a good companion to MoI, must investigate.

That's very nice indeed.

That's my favorite part (Freestyle Conceptual Design) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTHM9QNc2Y&feature=player_embedded

EDITED: 26 Nov 2010 by ADAMIO

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