Hi Nick,

> Any chance for more file types for import/export?

Sure, it's possible. What formats did you have in mind?

Right now DXF, SVG, and PDF are kind of at the top of the list.

- Michael

Import - *.wrl, *.dwg (3D data), pdf underlay
Export - 3D pdf, *.dwg, *.bip (for us Alibre users :-) )

Other than these I don't really have a "top 5." Even these are a "would be nice" feature and not something I would quit using MoI over.

Stuff that I would have in a top 5 you have already hinted at working on (mainly UI stuff).

Thanks!

Hi Nick, so there are some various difficulties with several of those formats.

.wrl is a polygon based format, things like a sphere in a .wrl file are made up of a lot of little triangular facets and not an actual smooth sphere surface. That's a pretty different type of data structure than the NURBS surfaces that MoI works with.

.dwg is a proprietary format from Autodesk which is not very easy to deal with without using some special kinds of libraries. There is a companion format called DXF which is actually documented (for 2D stuff anyway, NURBS solids are not documented).

.bip I don't think is publicly documented. I think it is a text file format so it could be possible to figure it out but having an official public document that describes the file structure helps a lot when trying to make an exporter for that format.

.bip is pretty specific to just one particular rendering program - just in general with MoI it's more feasible for me to work on file formats that tend to be used by a variety of different programs for file transfer instead of ones that are specific to just one program. OBJ format already contains the exact same kind of data that would go into a .bip file...


- Michael

Thanks, like I said these are kind "nice to have" things, but no real biggie. I understand DXF, but find DWG to be more robust/feature rich for 3D and is of course an industry standard (despite being proprietary). Maybe I could amend this and request 3D DWF instead?

The API, specification, and toolkit are freely available. http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=5801732

Thanks for listening,
Nick

Hi Nick, that's interesting that there is a toolkit available for DWF, I didn't know that existed.

What would be the benefit to you in having DWF output from MoI - is there a particular program that can only read in DWF format stuff and not any other formats?

I'm not really all that familiar with DWF myself - I guess it is basically trying to do the same job as PDF though? What are the advantages that you see compared to PDF?


I took a quick glance at it, and in some ways it seems to be a kind of complex file format, in that there are kind of various totally different sub formats within it, like 3D data is contained in a completely different kind of internal document than 2D data, etc... PDF is kind of like that as well though, with 3D PDF content being basically a completely different kind of structure kind of tacked on.

- Michael

You are correct with the two different froms for 2D vs. 3D. The reason for that is the 2D data (in some sort of xml format) is readable by the Microsoft XPS viewer which is included with Windows, so basically any windows (Vista +) computer can read 2D DWF data without any other program installed. This ability is limited to the DWFx format (which is kind of the new defacto).

The advantages of DWF over pdf are file size, and a more robust 3D viewer in addition to free markup tools (Adsk Design Review). DWF really is a more CAD-centric format than PDF. I *think* 3D pdf was kind of a reaction to DWF and is now in the hands of Tetra 4D (?) instead of Adobe. It's a good way to hand over a design for review without actually handing over the design. There aren't any specific programs (besides Design Review) that only accept DWF that I am aware of.

It has it's uses, but is not going to be a "Wow, I'm sold!" feature.

I attached a quick demo dwf (just some basic shapes). Note: only 2D stuff will show in xps viewer.

Hi Nick, I see - that could definitely be useful as a viewing mechanism.

That kind of thing is probably more on the back burner as compared to adding formats that are more about transferring data to be used by other CAD or illustration programs though.

2D PDF being generally similar in functionality but kind of more widespread would probably come first before DWF.

- Michael

The only other thing - and I don't know how it compares to 3D pdf, but the 3D data can be extracted. I have been playing on and off with IMSI DoubleCAD and it (probably TurboCAD as well) actually imports dwf 3D models and allows the use/editing of those models. Of course accuracy is compromised when that is done.

>2D PDF being generally similar in functionality but kind of more widespread would probably come first before DWF.

That's kind of what I figured. I have been trying for years to get clients to switch to dwf the file sizes are almost half of the same pdf (2D vs. 2D). I don't have or know of any programs that do both 3D pdf and 3D dwf so I can't compare 3D files.

Michael,


I have two request and unfortunately they are not low-hanging fruit. One I have asked about in the past, and I am sure others have also, which is a Mac version.

The other request will probably illustrate a severe lack of knowledge on my part, but I would like a way to convert my beautiful N-gon mesh to quads. I like how quickly I can make a model in MOI, but if I import the mesh as a obj they are unusable in ZBrush for sculpting.

This turns out to be such problem that I recently bought Modo, which allows me to add edge loops on my SubD models to have a nice quad mesh.

I am not sure how tough it would be to reduce the amount of tris generated during export, but it would help if I only had to make a few modifications in Modo or Maya, instead of having to retopo the whole mesh.

Regards,

Paul

Hi Paul, yeah unfortunately both of those are quite difficult things.

I am making some progress on converting the UI to a system that will be more feasible to run on other operating systems, so that's a step towards that but there may be several other big steps needed as well. So I'm not sure when that will actually happen. Meanwhile it is possible to run MoI on your Mac right now using the Parallels or VMWare virtualization systems.


> but I would like a way to convert my beautiful N-gon mesh to quads.

That's a much more difficult problem, since it would require a very different meshing mechanism, basically it would need to tile some kinds of complex outlines with a small pattern of quads. See these previous posts for some more description:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1244.48
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3854.15
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2451.50
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3869.64


> but if I import the mesh as a obj they are unusable
> in ZBrush for sculpting.

You can get an export for sculpting in ZBrush using some settings to divide the mesh into small pieces - also don't export using n-gons since ZBrush does not like to deal with n-gons, use "Output: Quads & Triangles" instead.

For dividing the mesh, enter a distance value in the "Divide larger than" setting to subdivide the mesh into little fragments, that can then be manipulated in ZBrush.

See here for some examples:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=804.26
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2833.5

- Michael

Meanwhile I think, the topologie of a NURBS surface is something special and it is very difficult or not possible to transfer it to polymodellers. I find, that this NURBS surfaces are better then all the others, probably of it´s mathematical concept, which creates them.

In my opinion it should be the task of programs like Modo, Blender and so on, to develope an importer for .3dm.

I say this, because i think it is better for Moi, that Micheal concentrates himself to develope MoI´s capabilities of making good surfaces,further.

I also would not need rendering and maesurement skills, for this I have TC, which has a .3dm importer. I have MoI because of it´s NURBSsurface skills.

Rudl

Hi Rudl, yeah so the difficulty is that using polygons for subdivision surface smoothing requires a very particular kind of topology which is having everything tiled into a pattern of quad faces.

That's a very different kind of topology than what MoI currently creates - for example with a shape like this:



MoI will create just 1 single polygon for the top face if you have n-gons enabled when exporting that shape to polygons.

To have all quads instead would mean tiling that top face with a bunch of little quad pieces instead, having them radiate out from the boundaries. The difficult part about that is when the quads from different boundaries collide into one another, that's in particular where a new topology would have to be created.

There are some special "retopologizing" tools that can be used to do that kind of conversion now - several polygon modeling tools have some tools to manage that kind of conversion. Topogun (http://www.topogun.com/) is a full program dedicated to that task, and 3D-Coat has a good toolset for it as well. But yes, it's kind of something that is more likely to happen within a polygon modeling toolset than automatically from MoI.

- Michael

Hi Michael...

> I am making some progress on converting the UI
Just curious, base on your prediction how long the conversion will be complete...? Hopefully you will make a good progress in the 3D Modeling improvement after the conversion is done.

Thanks....

Hi Anis,

> Just curious, base on your prediction how long the
> conversion will be complete...?

Unfortunately it is quite difficult for me to make an accurate prediction - I actually thought I would be done with it already by now.

But there is not too much left, the UI for commands is nearly fully functional, and after the last pieces of that are finished the main thing left will be the Scene Browser.

Then yes once the new UI system is all functional I will then return to work on 3D modeling functions.

- Michael

Hi Michael...

With the new UI engine, is it already customizable ? I mean user can drag and drop and rearrange the icon without need to go to the html editor.

>Then yes once the new UI system is all functional I will then return to work on 3D modeling functions.
Yeah, this will be more interesting... :)

Thanks Michael...

Hi Anis,

> With the new UI engine, is it already customizable ?
> I mean user can drag and drop and rearrange the icon
> without need to go to the html editor.

No, that doesn't come automatically, it will take some more work in the future to implement easier customizability.

The current work is about removing the dependency on mshtml.dll .

There are a few tricky aspects to handling customization during the beta release process while I may be also be adding in new things in the UI for new feature areas. Something like buttons for new features need to get merged in with the customized UI. So that will take some planning to figure out how to handle that.

- Michael

1 More Display Control
In Sketchup for example you can turn on different options like X-Ray, lines, shading. Also I don’t want a renderer bloating this wonderful program... but I would like simple materials like in Sculptris. Its easier to show the curvature of surfaces when you can use a reflective material.

2 Click on a point and change it between curve and corner.

3 Instancing

4 Live Symmetry (no copy mirror attach)

5 Through Points. Meaning, You can draw curves as either Control Points or Through Points. But it always ends up as Control Points after the curve is drawn. I want it to remain Through Points.

I wish there were more feedback from MoI: Is the command still running, did it terminate successfully or not? Maybe something like traffic lights: Green = All good, program idle; Yellow = Program running; Red = Error during last command, program idle.

""""""""""but I would like simple materials like in Sculptris. Its easier to show the curvature of surfaces when you can use a reflective material."""""""""""

Have you tried turning on the "Metallic lighting" option in the options/view/Lighting options dialogue???

Never knew about that option! However in Sculptris you can make an actual environment map for fake glossy reflections like in video games. It's eye catching and easy on the graphics card.