/Heurm, same question than Pilou here, have you any interface exemple

GUI appearance optimization is a relatively new genre seriously backward compared to the other contemporary areas of applied aesthetics. So its very hard to give impressive examples, but yes, I think the recent trend of Autodesk is going in the right direction.

/Hi Enzo, what is it you don't like?
The colors? The Icons? The Layout design?

The human perceptions of visual attractiveness is very complicated psychological process related to our fiction of harmony and the individual level of maturity. Unfortunately the problem can not be simplified to that level. That's why I suggested attention of a specialist.

/works well in its simplicity and clarity and I am a lot more interested in how it works, in any case.

Simplicity and clarity are definitely some of the basics. As for the simple utilitarian approach - most people are eager to upgrade it as soon they have opportunity/chance to do so. It's in our nature. IMO its very important not to underestimate that fact.

hum
I am not sure that the GUI Autodesk shown above is very easy to use!
Icons are very small, there is no difference between them, text is no readable etc ...:)

"the look of MOI is the only thing preventing me from switching to this modeler"

What matters to me is getting the job done in the fastest, least frustrating way possible.

The "look" of the UI is not a consideration for me, as long as I can find things, it's logical, and it doesn't confuse or work against me.

Now, several years ago I purchased a render program called TrueSpace. I gave up after 2 weeks because the UI was like a game of looking inside the little 3D icons to find various functions.

So, is it the "look" or the functionality that is the issue? From the title of your post, it seems to be the aesthetics.

If so, that seems to be a strange criteria to decide which modeling program to use. I'll take functionality, ease of use, and excellent support ahead of aesthetics. Not that I think MOI is ugly, but who needs the cluttered eye candy? Also, keep in mind the MoI UI was designed from the beginning to be compatible with a pen tablet. Simplicity is the key here.

+1 for keeping MOI like it is. Aesthetics IMHO are always subjective. It doesn't mean there isn't room for change. As more features are integrated into the existing structure obviously Michael will change some things, but I think gradually and in harmony with the existing structure. I believe sometimes those who aren't currently using MOI are unaware or have forgotten that the stated mission of MOI is for 3d modeling using a tablet or on a tablet pc. This by necessity forces some changes to the typical guis that are prevalent today. I like positive change but never for change's sake. MOI's gui to me is great in that most of the power is not shown until you need it. By keeping an option for a command located within the relevant command's tab it shows that option is related to that command. If it doesn't show up on a tab it keeps me from trying to do something that is not supported or not recommended. That's worth its weight in gold to me. It seems to me that Michael works very hard designing logical relationships in commands by choosing sensible placement of tab options. Sometime in the future when I become more skilled I may need a certain subset of tools that I use frequently for a particular type of modeling job to be always available. I believe that's already available though. Perhaps I just don't have sophisticated tastes, but I've always really liked MOI's clean non-intimidating interface.

My .02

Size, differentiation and readability are typical usability issues and not aesthetic problems. Even though I personally think that both terms overlap in meaning to some point (because attractiveness catalyzes the acceptance and therefore affects the usability) for clarity in such discussion I think they should not be mixed:

Usability = ease of use
Aesthetics = attractiveness

And I totally agree with you – usability factors should never be sacrificed in favor of aesthetic factors. They should be supported by them. But again, a professional should know all that.

/Aesthetics IMHO are always subjective.

No this is just very popular delusion. Applied aesthetics and people working in that area study and employ the popular/group reaction to visual problems. Not the individual characteristics.

Talk of aesthetics visual things without show images is a nonsense!
it's not a CAD but fun 3D prog (Sculptris) (in Alpha work here) Same easy use like Moi ;)

/Talk of aesthetics visual things without show images is a nonsense!

Ha ha you are absolutely right :) I didn't mean to write much. Just wanted to make a suggestion to Michael out of sympathy for his work.

Hi Enzo,

> Now, since the V2 is almost ready, are there any plans
> to hire a professional to work on the interface aesthetics?

Well, it's funny you mention that, because I did actually hire a interface professional very early on with MoI to help me design the color scheme (way in the early development before the first beta release).

So that's already been done!


> In my case the look of MOI is the only thing preventing me
> from switching to this modeler.

Wow, really? That seems amazing to me that you would let the color of the UI affect your judgement so much.

I've had very few complaints about the UI, most people find the UI as a whole to actually be the single biggest positive thing about MoI!

But of course tastes vary and there is no way to please all the people all of the time.

Some people seem to like a "dark & depressing" UI more, is that the kind of thing that you would expect?

Possibly in the future I'll be able to do 2 skins, a standard one as it currently has, and a "super professional gloomy gothic" one so that you could switch between them.

But it does add quite a bit of time to maintain 2 parallel UIs, which is why I haven't focused on it so far. It is just such a non-issue for the vast majority of users that it has not been a good thing to invest much time in yet.


All of the stuff that makes up the UI (PNG files, CSS, etc...) is actually accessible under the \ui subfolder under MoI's main installation folder so you can actually go in there and tweak things yourself if you wish. See these previous posts for some info on that:

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3169.2
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2964.1


But frankly, I find it pretty weird that you would completely stay away from using MoI because the color of the UI is not "professional" enough... MoI is generally meant to be a tool that is easier for people with less experience to use. If it offends you that MoI has this focus on ease of use and accessibility to "regular people" then it probably is not going to be the right program for you.

- Michael

I know a kid with a masters degree in Human interface design from stanford. His website really sucks...Kindof a joke....But, he will explain to you all the reasons why you should like it over some of the popular ones... I think he's in a self imposed bubble. Remember, only a certain type of person will sit in a focus group to be anylized. This would never be me. Actually, this produces very poor and narrow results with regard to psychology and public sampling.

One of the great things about MoI's UI is it is completely and utterly customizable with regard to it's appearance (we just havnt seen anything with this regard due to the beta flux....When V2 is released, return to discuss this) And it is unique in this way.

Enzo, please don't take this the wrong way, but you have managed to confuse me. I am in opposition to something you said.

You said

Aesthetics = attractiveness

and then disagreed with my opinion that aesthetics were subjective.


Attractiveness = pleasing to the eye or mind. Charming ... and a lot of other similar words and phrases that are sort of close in a lesser way to beauty. I'm having a hard time figuring out how anything defined as pleasing to the eye or mind can be anything other than subjective. I don't know you, but I'd be willing to wager a very large sum of money that what I considered attractive would be something other than what you would if we are from different cultures, environments, upbringing etc. I hope you are not saying that there could possibly be a 'correct' definition of attractive? I'm sorry, but I disagree with any idea along those lines.

If you are speaking of something definite like cohesiveness, regularity or whatever might be more concrete than attractiveness maybe something could actually be discussed regarding it, but I don't agree that anyone's idea of 'attractiveness' might be more valid than another's.

Please note if this comes across as strongly worded it is not intended to be that way at all. I understand that I normally don't write precisely what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure why, but I've been told that, so I hope it makes sense and conveys my intentions accurately.

I will not hammer a nail with a yellow hammer. If the hammer were red, then I'd use it hit the nail.

Funny that the color of the tool is dictating the usage.

That exist! ;)

"don't you think that the help of a specialist in the area of aesthetics would help MOI to expand its market by including the groups with more developed criteria?"

No, because I don't think that serious 3D users choose their tools according to their colour (which in the case of MoI can be changed in any case). I would strongly disagree with Michael spending any time or other resources on frivolities of this kind. The point is that the UI works extremely well and is at least partly customisable. Let's not try to fix something that isn't broken.

Dan

Hello,

+1 for keeping the GUI as is. I'm not sure what to make of the suggestion that the GUI is a hindrance to MoI being used. After all we are not talking about a product that will be used by billions of people. It just needs to make sense for the target market. MoI is one of the few packages I actually enjoy using. I would be interested to see in a single iconic sense what might be a better representation for the fillet command for example.

To BurrMan:
:) I know. This is quite popular actually and it is one of the most important reasons for the mass skepticism when aesthetic issues are discussed.

To omac12:
The subjective element exists of course, nobody could argue about that. We are not machines. But there are also patterns of reactions, emotions and behavior related to the aesthetic factors. Studding and exploiting these patterns is what this science is about. I know it is not easy explain that. There is noting simple and easy about human psychology and aesthetics in that matter. Most people, even some professionals can not even consciously think on that. They have completely spontaneous and emotional approach to this problems. Even if you try to force them to run the most basic aesthetic analysis they'll typically fail by looking for same simple pragmatic explanation related usually to functionality, witch of course has nothing to do with aesthetics, or they will simply give up by stating “everything is about personal taste and that is that!”. Well not everything. We know that know. It is unpleasant for all of us to realize that our reaction about things we don't quite understand very often follow common patterns, but it is true and it is commonly used by developers.

To Michael:
>Well, it's funny you mention that, because I did actually hire a interface professional

Sounds good!

>most people find the UI as a whole to actually be the single biggest positive thing about MoI!

Most people mistake usability aspects of the interface with aesthetic and it is true that the usability aspects of MOI's GUI are quite impressive, but.. not the look.

>Some people seem to like a "dark & depressing", "super professional gloomy gothic"

Ha ha ha well... I can imagine the GUI to look much better than now, without being dark, depressing and gloomy :)

>But frankly, I find it pretty weird that you would completely stay away from using MoI because the color of the UI is not "professional" enough..

I can't be creative in my work if I am distracted unpleasantly by interface and what surrounds me in general. Believe me I am not happy about that at all and I dare to guess that I am not the only one.

>MoI is generally meant to be a tool that is easier for people with less experience to use. If it offends you that MoI has this focus on ease of use and accessibility to "regular people" then it probably is not going to be the right program for you.

Again, try to distinguish the “ease of use” and “accessibility” from aesthetic attractiveness and we will be on the same page. You don't have to sacrifice neither of these. I am talking about upgrading them with better look.

>If it offends you that MoI has this focus on ease of use and accessibility to "regular people" this focus on ease of use and accessibility to "regular people"

I am not certain I understand your point of view. Why I should feel offended of the fact that “this focus on ease of use and accessibility to "regular people"? I and any other user could only appreciate that.

> it probably is not going to be the right program for you.

Still I hope you will consider my suggestion and don't give up on me and many other potential users willing to work with pleasant looking software. Non the less I think MOI deserves that.

Hi Enzo,

> Most people mistake usability aspects of the interface
> with aesthetic and it is true that the usability aspects
> of MOI's GUI are quite impressive, but.. not the look.

I have had feedback from people specifically praising the look and the colors, not just the usability.

Certainly tastes in colors vary and not everyone will be pleased with any single setup.

Because of that fact, it is just not really an area that I have a lot of interest in spending that much time in - no matter what is done to the UI there will always be someone who complains that it does not look nice.

These complaints are very far and few between with MoI, so I have a lot of doubt that this is really a widespread major issue with MoI.

Probably the ideal thing I could do would be to have a couple of different skins to switch between, and maybe in the future I will be able to work on that, but it requires quite a lot of work.


> Ha ha ha well... I can imagine the GUI to look much better
> than now, without being dark, depressing and gloomy :)

Right now it is hard for me to understand something that is currently trapped just in your imagination...

If you have some suggestions or ideas, it would really help a lot if you would make some images to describe them in a more concrete way rather than just making such vague statements.

Your one concrete recommendation to hire a professional has actually already been done...


> I can't be creative in my work if I am distracted unpleasantly
> by interface and what surrounds me in general. Believe me I
> am not happy about that at all and I dare to guess that I am
> not the only one.

Surely you must be exaggerating considerably.

MoI's interface looks pleasant and welcoming, without an "in your face" type look, with easy text readability.

I have a hard time understanding what you would find distracting about it.


> Again, try to distinguish the “ease of use” and “accessibility”
> from aesthetic attractiveness and we will be on the same page.
> You don't have to sacrifice neither of these. I am talking about
> upgrading them with better look.

How specifically would this "upgrade" take place? So far I have seen no images or concrete examples from you.


> I am not certain I understand your point of view. Why I should
> feel offended of the fact that “this focus on ease of use and
> accessibility to "regular people"? I and any other user could
> only appreciate that.

Well, sorry to use this word but most of your complaint seems to be coming from a kind of "pretentious artist who understands style SO much better than other people" kind of a vibe...

That's why it seems like you may be offended by MoI's focus on being more friendly to a wider group of less specialized users rather than targeted at some privileged snobby elite "professional" user...

Sorry, but that's mostly what I get from your statements so far.

If you have something concrete to suggest, by all means show some images or some examples instead of making vague statements.

Try not to exaggerate and claim that MoI's current UI looks so horrible - when you make such grossly exaggerated statements like that it is hard to take what you are saying seriously.

- Michael

Enzo,

There is no room for arrogance, because arrogance does not have a good style.


Michael,

Please do not change the great & unique "Look and Feel". :)

Hi Enzo, also the other thing to be aware of is that the choice of colors and usability can often be intertwined much more than what you seem to think.

I often see usability sacrificed in the name of style particularly with less readable text, for example black text on a dark gray background.

- Michael

Hello,

Enzo, how about a single icon example? It doesn’t need to be polished, just sketch it up and post it to the forum. As someone who has done localization and usability work in the past for some very complex design software I’m interested to see what your ideas entail.

I hope you were joking when you blamed your lack of attention and creativity on a software application interface. Frankly, if that is the case I don’t know how you are able to function.

No, no I wasn't complaining. I am not even surprised of the situation with the interface and everything else. There is no point to continue with this conversation since you can not detect the problem and obviously not taking seriously what I said.

>If you have some suggestions or ideas, it would really help a lot if you would make some images to describe them in a more concrete way rather than just making such vague statements.

My ideas or suggestions will not replace professional consultancy. Finally this is what these people sell for a living – ideas, concepts and strategies. At some point if you realize that aesthetic improvements could be important for MOI see if you could find someone you could trust and contract with him.

Annoying the visitors of this forum is the opposite of my intention so I will not reply further.