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 From:  neo
3112.41 
(Pen-tablet friendly user interface.

MoI features a unique user interface that integrates particularly well with a pen tablet. Unlike most programs, you don't have to constantly tap the Shift, Alt, or Control keys, so you don't have to hover over the keyboard when using MoI. Also right-clicking tends to be awkward with a pen. MoI provides simple left-click methods for view manipulation functions that require right-clicking in other CAD programs.)

This quot is one of the main reasons I got attracted to MoI on the first place. MoI is almost there and it works nicely on my Cintiq 21UX...so I think we should keep it this way:)


As Anis & Pilou I also think on screen widgets (heads-up user interface) is a better approach than keyboard shortcuts ( can you imagine how many shortcuts MoI V5 will have?).

Personally I think with in few yeas every designer will work on a table, touch screen computers and is one of the reasons why vendors like SolidWorks, SpaceClaim http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkxqgbXaSI&feature=player_embedded InventorFusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8AZR3aXsrI&feature=related etc. have started adapting/redesignig their UI...

just my 2c.

EDITED: 22 Nov 2009 by NEO

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3112.42 In reply to 3112.41 
Seems second youtube address is false ;)
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3112.43 
@ Michael: And about loop faces selection?

EDITED: 22 Nov 2009 by PILOU

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 From:  neo
3112.44 In reply to 3112.42 
link is updated.

Pilou my post is more about concerning keyboard shortcuts in general rather than a solution to a specific feature (Looped edge selection)....But in that case a double click could make more sense to me.
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3112.45 In reply to 3112.44 
Yes :)
Sorry my message was for Micheal (edited)
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 From:  BurrMan
3112.46 In reply to 3112.41 
>>>>>As Anis & Pilou I also think on screen widgets (heads-up user interface) is a better approach than keyboard shortcuts ( can you imagine how many shortcuts MoI V5 will have?).
>>>>>


I think the benefit of using shortcuts for alot of these things is that everybody has different needs. I dont need shortcuts that you need.

Can you imagine what the UI will look like full of "WIDGETS"!

The other thing we can rememeber, is MoI is so "Customizable"! When the release is out, and especially down the road (Like V5), Custom Widgets can be made that contain "any" of the commands that you would like. they dont need to be in the UI. Think future. :)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.47 In reply to 3112.41 
Hi neo,

> As Anis & Pilou I also think on screen widgets (heads-up user
> interface) is a better approach than keyboard shortcuts ( can
> you imagine how many shortcuts MoI V5 will have?).

Being easy to use is actually a much larger overall focus for MoI in general.

Having a whole bunch of stuff pop up right in your face all the time is just not very friendly - if those functions are not needed all the time it makes for a cluttered screen and makes things more difficult to use because when there are a ton of things presented it can then become difficult to find the particular things you need in a huge sea of stuff.

Putting advanced functionality on keyboard shortcuts is a strategy that helps me offer additional features for advanced users but at the same time keeps the overall UI streamlined and very easy to use.

So that's an intentional direction, and it's probably something that will generally increase in the future as well.

The main choice other than that would be to not have the functionality added at all... But that does not seem to be what most people want.


I would like to keep the essential basic stuff working smoothly for tablets, but the fact is that the majority of people using MoI are actually not on tablets.

- Michael

EDITED: 22 Nov 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.48 In reply to 3112.41 
Hi neo, also one other note:

> Personally I think with in few yeas every designer will work on a table

It's very unlikely that this will happen within a few years.

There are just too many problem with the ergonomics of a touch screen for long term desktop use.

For example you can't really work with a touch screen in front of you all day long at a desk because your arm will get too strained by reaching out in front of you all the time.

For some more information see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_screen#Ergonomics_and_usage


Touch screens have actually been available since the 1970s, if they are a much better way for designers to work, wouldn't you have thought it would have happened in the last 30 years?


Certainly that kind of big table or wall UI is really cool for things like presentations or casual use, but not as an every day, all day long work environment.

It's pretty easy to get carried away with the "cool factor" with this stuff...

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.49 In reply to 3112.41 
Hi neo, also another one:

> This quot is one of the main reasons I got attracted to MoI on
> the first place. MoI is almost there and it works nicely on my
> Cintiq 21UX...so I think we should keep it this way:)

The thing is, adding in some optional function as a keyboard shortcut does not suddenly ruin all the other aspects of MoI that do work well on a tablet.

You can easily pretend that this new function does not exist, it does not get in your way or interfere with the existing normal operation on a tablet.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.50 In reply to 3112.43 
Hi Pilou,

> @ Michael: And about loop faces selection?

Nothing for that currently, do you have an example where it would be useful to do that?

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3112.51 In reply to 3112.50 
< Nothing for that currently
Nothing special, it's a question from Steph3D ;)
Less useful then edges but in some case can be useful
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.52 In reply to 3112.51 
Hi Pilou,

> Less useful then edges but in some case can be useful

If you find a useful case, please post the model for it.

This one though (select face loop) is something that is rarely found in CAD and is more of a polygon modeling function only.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
3112.53 In reply to 3112.52 
Ok, it was just a simple question :)
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 From:  neo
3112.54 
>>>Putting advanced functionality on keyboard shortcuts is a strategy that helps me offer additional features for advanced users but at the same time keeps the overall UI streamlined and very easy to use.

I understand but in this case (Looped edge selection) an "advance" feature? functions like that should be "obvious" IMO


>>>For example you can't really work with a touch screen in front of you all day long at a desk because your arm will get too strained by reaching out in front of you all the time.

I was referring to pen tables with finger gestures combo.... and funny enough it was my doctors recommendation to use a tablet due to a wrist problem I had...I'm telling u is a bliss using AliasStudio or Photoshop all day long on a tablet.


>>>Touch screens have actually been available since the 1970s, if they are a much better way for designers to work, wouldn't you have thought it would have happened in the last 30 years?

I wish was that simple, there many variables you have to take in to account, one of them is price, and how many hardware/software vendors could provide solutions at a reasonable cost ?
But now days you can get an iPod touch for $150.00...soon a tablet computers for $300-500.
Oh here is a funny example, Autodesk SketchBook, Users have purchased more than 140,000 copies and have downloaded more than 900,000 copies of the free version on the App Store...hmm Not bad $450.000 in two months. How many copies you think they will sell when the apple tablet is out?

>>>You can easily pretend that this new function does not exist, it does not get in your way or interfere with the existing normal operation on a tablet.

No comments on this one :(


Thanks again for your time and input.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.55 In reply to 3112.54 
Hi neo,

> I understand but in this case (Looped edge selection)
> an "advance" feature? functions like that should be
> "obvious" IMO

Seems to be more in that category as it is not particularly necessary for smaller sized models and it has just not been that frequently requested compared to other things.

I think eventually it will probably end up with a button for it under the Select menu in the side pane though. I will probably wait a bit before doing that to see how many other variants or similar functions to it will be in there overall.

I don't think that it comes up frequently enough to merit a full in-viewport "heads up" UI though - that type of stuff needs to be reserved for things that used on a much more frequent basis.

If you fill up the priority UI with lesser used things it ends up poorly for the overall usability.

There is some possibility that I will be able to re-evaluate it over time and promote it up there, but leaping to put stuff at that level too early is a very bad move for the long run.


> I was referring to pen tables with finger gestures combo....

The video you linked to was 2 hands directly on a screen, not a pen tablet.


> and funny enough it was my doctors recommendation to use a
> tablet due to a wrist problem I had...

Well, I'm certain that he meant a pen tablet that would be in a roughly similar location as a mousepad, it is unlikely that he was talking about a touch screen like in your linked video.

Definitely for some people gripping a pen rather than a mouse makes them have a better posture. That does not have a whole lot to do with replacing your monitor with a touchscreen one though.


> one of them is price, and how many hardware/software
> vendors could provide solutions at a reasonable cost ?

If there was a high demand by designers for that in a desktop environment, there would have definitely been more focus on bringing cost effective solutions for this to the marketplace.

Did you actually read the wikipedia link?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Touch_screen#Ergonomics_and_usage)

There is not just one ergonomic problem, there are many in addition to arm strain, like stress on the neck if you have to look downwards, smudging of the screen by your hand, and your hand obscuring the content on the screen. These are big problems that won't magically be solved in the next few years.


> But now days you can get an iPod touch for $150.00

Do you seriously consider an iPod touch to be a replacement for a desktop computer for full time all day work?

Really, seriously??


> Oh here is a funny example, Autodesk SketchBook, Users
> have purchased more than 140,000 copies and have downloaded
> more than 900,000 copies of the free version on the App Store...

Yeah, I'm sure it is cool for specialized usage, like being able to at least attempt to draw something while you are on a subway or something like that.

Find me some people who are throwing away their desktop computers and only using Autodesk SketchBook on the iPhone for all their illustration work, and then I will be more impressed!


Again, it is easy to get carried away with the "cool factor" with stuff like this. Sorry to pour cold water, but the reality is harsh.

- Michael

EDITED: 22 Nov 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.56 In reply to 3112.54 
Hi neo, so the other general problem is that it is just far, far more time intensive to design UI that is tablet friendly.

I'm glad that I focused on it early in MoI's design, because it helped me to start from scratch and do some stuff that was fresh and new instead of just doing the "standard app" dropdown menu + toolbar type thing.

I am careful to not disturb the existing tablet friendly nature of MoI when adding in new functions, but it is just not possible for me to take the design time to have every single new feature be "heads up tablet enabled" in all cases.... It is just too time intensive, the reality would be that I would not be able to add in as many functions.

So the main choice with this loop selection for example is to have it as something you can set up as a keyboard shortcut, or to not have it all until some time in the future when I could spend all the time that would be necessary to consider how to make it work in a "heads up" manner if that is even possible (possible to do without making a decrease in overall usability in the long term I mean).

Which do you think would be the better choice in this case - do you think it would be better if it was not added in at all?

It would be cool if I could magically have 72 hours of work in a day to have more design time, but I'm limited to only 24 hours in a day.

- Michael
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 From:  neo
3112.57 
just to clarify I did mention that I use Cintiq 21UX on my first post, the SpaceClaim MultiTouch link was more of a show case on finger gestures in a CAD application...

also last thing I want is to play/sketch on a iphone on the other hand using SketchBook & MoI on tablet it does make sense to me.

perhaps there is a language barrier here :(
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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.58 In reply to 3112.57 
Hi neo,

> the SpaceClaim MultiTouch link was more of a show case on
> finger gestures in a CAD application...

It does look pretty cool! I wish that I had more time available to me so that I could play around with it and experiment with some similar stuff.

But sadly my time is limited and there is currently more mainstream type stuff that needs attention first.


> also last thing I want is to play/sketch on a iphone

I am confused now - why did you specifically mention the iphone/ipod touch as an example then?


At any rate, like I mentioned it is important to me to not mess up the stuff in MoI that does work well on a tablet currently.


I understand that you wish that I could work 100% of the time only on refining MoI for multi-touch. But that's just not what the larger number of my user base needs for me to be focused on.

- Michael

EDITED: 22 Nov 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Metin Seven (METINSEVEN)
3112.59 
Hi Michael,

I've set up a shortcut key for this inline script / MoI edge loop select function:

script: /*Edge loop selection*/ moi.geometryDatabase.selectLoop();

But a lot of the time when I select two edges and run the script, the result is not as I'd expect. Here's an illustration:



The first image shows two edges I selected, the second image shows the result, and the third image shows the selection I'd love to see.

Is there maybe a possible workaround or different approach to get the desired edge loop selection?

Many thanks.

Regards,

— Metin

———————

visualization • illustration • animation • 3D design — metinseven.nl

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 From:  Michael Gibson
3112.60 In reply to 3112.59 
Hi Metin,

> Is there maybe a possible workaround or different approach to get the desired edge loop selection?

Sorry no, not currently. Right now the loop selection mechanism works as described here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3112.22
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=3112.32

It tries to target a trimming loop on one face. The result you are looking for is crossing over 3 different faces it looks like.

- Michael
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