Browser icon (eye/lock)

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 From:  tyglik
2990.1 
Hi Michael, the eye and lock icon mixing in the scene browser still confused me a bit. It might be better to have separate icons to indicate the state of objects belonging to slot. It would also help to lock/unlock a batch of objects simply by using left/right click without Ctrl key modifier. -Petr
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.2 In reply to 2990.1 
Hi Petr, well remember when you first posted here you said something like: I like MoI now but I won't like it by version 5 because software always gets so complex over time.

I'm really committed to trying to maintain simplicity as much as possible to avoid that from happening. This is a good example of one of those efforts.

Adding another column to the scene browser makes it more visually complex and it leaves less room for the name label. So adding in another column creates some problems, it makes the scene browser overall less streamlined.

Locking is just not used as frequently or by as many people as hiding, and there are many people who actually never use it. So those people would only receive the negative effects of having an additional column and not gain anything positive from it.

So that's why I don't want to have an additional column for it - it is just not providing enough value for the cost.

Also having a single "status" column seems to give a nice benefit that the lock and the eye stick out from one another more, so it is actually easier to glance down the column and see differences in status, rather than needing to examine multiple columns.


> It would also help to lock/unlock a batch of objects simply by
> using left/right click without Ctrl key modifier.

I'm not quite following this part.... you can still do the "swipe" method with Ctrl down to lock/unlock a series of entries in one motion. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about for batching?

- Michael
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 From:  tyglik
2990.3 In reply to 2990.2 
Hi Michael,

>>I'm really committed to trying to maintain simplicity as much as possible...

I really appreciate your effort to do that!


>>see differences in status, rather than needing to examine multiple columns

Except there are so many different icons. I think most people expect "status" icon having on/off state and not having eight different ones :)



Moreover I see no logic behind it. For example, I draw three lines and lock one of them. I would expect "half-lock & full eye icon" because all objects are visible and one of them is locked. But I get "full lock & eye icon".


>>Is that the kind of thing you're talking about for batching?

No. I mean the batch of objects that belongs to Style/Types/Objects slot. With additional column there would be no need to use Ctrl+click on eye/lock icon to lock/unlock the entry in the scene browser.

Petr
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.4 In reply to 2990.3 
Hi Petr,

> Except there are so many different icons. I think most
> people expect "status" icon having on/off state and not
> having eight different ones :)

Well, that's covered under the design principle that I use which is called "Don't obsess so much about the fringe cases that most people don't see"... ;)

If you are using the scene browser for the most part to manage your objects, you won't typically see many of those states you show there because you will be setting all the objects in that slot to the same state for each action.

So most people end up seeing just these 4 states for the status:









Those are really easy to understand.


All the other ones you show will happen when the objects in that slot have a mixed state, like only some of the hidden or only some of them locked, stuff like that.

If you're using the scene browser to manage your objects, when you see any mixed state at all, it is not really so important to know exactly what the mix is, the important thing is to just know that it is mixed and that you probably want to click on it to unmix it. Just Ctrl+click on it once and it will get "unmixed" for locking, any kind of lock will go away and if you want it all to be locked, Ctrl+click a second time and you're done.

Also like I mentioned for a lot of people they will never actually see any of those locks at all, since locking is not as common as hiding/showing - so the most common mixed state is actually just the half eye.


> Moreover I see no logic behind it. For example, I draw three
> lines and lock one of them. I would expect "half-lock & full
> eye icon" because all objects are visible and one of them is
> locked. But I get "full lock & eye icon".

It actually does follow a rigorous pattern - basically locked and unlocked objects are handled completely separately - if there are any locked objects there will be a lock icon put down first, with one of 3 states:

If all locked items are visible = full lock icon
If all locked items are hidden = faint full lock icon
If locked items are mixed between hidden and visible, split lock icon half faint half opaque.

Then if there are unlocked objects it will generate an eye or half-eye as an overlay on top of that. If the eye is being done as an overlay on top of a lock, it uses a slightly different and more hollow eye.


Having the lock icon change with the locked item's visibility worked out best especially for the simple case where you've got everything in the slot to be the same state, because then the "locked + hidden" state shows as a faint lock which is good.


At any rate, the main thing is if you see a mixed state with both a lock and an eye don't worry so much about the specifics of what the current state is, it's a big mixture of stuff so you need to unmix it, just Ctrl+click on it once to make it have a uniform locked state and you are then set.


> With additional column there would be no need to use
> Ctrl+click on eye/lock icon to lock/unlock the entry in
> the scene browser.

Yeah, but you are talking about just saving the Ctrl, is that it? That's not really too significant of a difference, particularly for a function that is not used as often.

It's generally a problem to try and optimize lesser used functions and bring them to the same level as higher used functions, that tends to dilute the higher level use to a certain extent. That's the deal for this case.

- Michael

EDITED: 15 Oct 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON


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 From:  tyglik
2990.5 In reply to 2990.4 
okay, Michael... reasonable arguments in your previous two posts...

Yet another question about locked objects. I thought the "Isolate function" (right click on Hide button in the command palette) was a shortcut to doing a sequence of commands Invert + Hide. But it isn't because it handles locked objects as well - all locked and visible objects are hidden after using Isolate function.

Petr

EDITED: 16 Oct 2009 by TYGLIK

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.6 In reply to 2990.5 
Hi Petr, one other thing I was thinking of was to possibly have the locked/unlocked mixed status displayed with some tiny icons, like this:



I usually try to avoid making really teeny-tiny things but I guess in this case it may be better than stacked over top of each other.


> I thought the "Isolate function" (right click on Hide button
> in the command palette) was a shortcut to doing a sequence
> of commands Invert + Hide.

It's really meant to be a method to hide all objects that are not selected, leaving only the selected objects shown so you can concentrate on them.

Previously the closest thing to that was Invert + Hide, but yeah Invert + Hide has different behavior with locked objects because locked objects do not get selected with the invert.

There's also another difference between Isolate and Invert+Hide - Isolate actually stores an internal snapshot of the state of all objects right before changing them, so that you can click it again later and get back to the pre-isolate state. This was actually the main reason to make a special isolate method.

- Michael
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 From:  tyglik
2990.7 In reply to 2990.6 
Hi Michael, do you have a set of those alternate icons? I could try how they fit to various screen resolution. But I guess if you are not loaded in favour of two-column style :) , you can leave it as it is. -Petr
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 From:  Marc (TELLIER)
2990.8 
Hi Petr and Michael,

Just an idea: the lock icon could be on the right side of the column, only appearing when needed.
It could 'eat' up a bit of the text label space while on.

Marc
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.9 In reply to 2990.7 
Hi Petr,

> Hi Michael, do you have a set of those alternate icons?

No, I don't have any set up yet, that was just a test run that I posted previously but it turned out kind of better than I had thought it would.

So I think I'll give that a try.

That would just be an alternate display for the mixed state though, it doesn't turn it into 2 column controls.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.10 In reply to 2990.8 
Hi Marc,

> It could 'eat' up a bit of the text label space while on.

One problem is that not everything has the text label immediately next to the status column, for styles there is a swatch next to it, and for groups there will probably be a +/- control next to it before the name text label.

- Michael
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 From:  Marc (TELLIER)
2990.11 In reply to 2990.10 
Hi Michael,

I'm not sure if I've explained it well, I meant at the rightmost side...




Marc
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2990.12 In reply to 2990.11 
Hi Marc, I see - that makes more sense.

But I already have something else planned for that spot - some things will likely get a arrow there (similar to the one Styles header part, but only showing up when the mouse is on that item's line) that will open up a menu with some additional actions and stuff related to that particular slot.

- Michael
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