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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.1 
Hi Michael,

I think this has been discussed before but I've been using a laptop tablet more and more lately and thought it would be nice to expand the viewport with in the view instead of moving to the view icons, I feel it would make the work flow smoother.
Any future intentions?

Cheers
~Danny~
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 From:  BurrMan
2989.2 In reply to 2989.1 
How about a shortcut key, D.
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.3 In reply to 2989.2 
Hi Burr,

I have the shift key assigned for this but when I'm using the tablet the screen folds over the keys, then I revert to the icons.

-
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.4 In reply to 2989.1 
Hi Danny, I'm not completely sure if I follow what you mean by "within the view", could you maybe describe it in a bit more detail?

But one thing that I wanted to avoid was requiring to travel to the upper corner of a viewport in order to expand or restore it.

Otherwise switching between 2 maximized views is kind of awkward because you have to go to the corner, restore back to split view, then go to the other viewport and expand it.

That's a much worse workflow than the current method where you can switch to any view with one single click on a view tab in the bottom toolbar. So for example with the current system if you are in the maximized Front view and you want to switch to a maximized Top view, you just go and click on the Top tab and you are done.

But maybe you're talking about something different?

Also you may be interested in setting up the viewport toggle script on the space bar:
http://kyticka.webzdarma.cz/3d/moi/#MaximizeViewport
That allows you to push space to maximize the view that your mouse is currently inside of, or switch back to split view if you are already in a maximized view.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.5 In reply to 2989.1 
Or when you say expand the view, do you mean zooming in and out? Or do you mean maximizing the view to take up the whole window versus split mode with multiple views showing?

- Michael
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Message 2989.6 deleted 14 Oct 2009 by BURRMAN

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.7 In reply to 2989.3 
Hi Danny, it kind of sounds like you're talking about zooming with the pointer inside of a viewport without having a keyboard available?

So the difficulty with that is that by default clicking inside the viewport with no modifier keys works to select objects or place points or drag construction lines while in a drawing command.

If just clicking inside of a viewport with no modifiers did zooming instead of that, then how would you select objects or pick points?

There has to be something that tells MoI that it should do different actions - by clicking on the view toolbar icon you're telling MoI to do that.

In the future possibly multi-touch would work for being able to control a zoom in the middle of the viewport without needing to use the zoom button. But current TabletPCs are not set up with that capability I don't think.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.8 In reply to 2989.1 
Hi Danny - you also might want to look at the Pen flicks / gesture support of the Tablet PC system. If you can set up a gesture that it will recognize and treat as a mouse wheel event, then that could be a possibility.

I've generally tried to avoid relying on too many gestures directly within MoI except for very simple ones like "drag versus click".

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2989.9 In reply to 2989.7 
Or an onscreen keyboard that the stylus pops in and out?
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.10 In reply to 2989.9 
Hi Burr,

> Or an onscreen keyboard that the stylus pops in and out?

Yup something like that could be another possibility.

Some of the newer non-TabletPC drawing tablets have some programmable buttons on the edge of the tablet.

Maybe those will eventually get included with foldable laptop / TabletPCs as well so that it does not have to be all-or-nothing full keyboard or no keys at all.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2989.11 In reply to 2989.10 
I suppose he could "HotGlue" a USB keyboard to the outside of the lid? :O (Sorry Danny)
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.12 In reply to 2989.4 
Yes, I do mean Maximizing the view to take up the whole window.

> Otherwise switching between 2 maximized views
> is kind of awkward because you have to go to
> the corner, restore back to split view, then go
> to the other viewport and expand it.

Well, I guess when you put it like that it wouldn't make sense, but I wasn't thinking of using the corner to activate the viewport expansion, I was picturing maybe something I've seen where you hold down one of the pen buttons to pop up a set of faded icons, like the view control bar, then mouse over the view you want.

Re:Space bar, yes as I've mentioned above, I use this script/key combo all the time, but with the laptop tablet folded down I don't have access to the keys any more.

~Danny~

EDITED: 14 Oct 2009 by DANTAS

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.13 In reply to 2989.12 
Hi Danny,

> I was picturing maybe something I've seen where
> you hold down one of the mouse buttons to pop up
> a set of faded icons

That's one of those things that could be good for expert users but is kind of too hidden or subtle for people who are just starting with the software.

The current one lets someone have a good chance at figuring out how to switch between different views just by looking at the screen for the first time - that's pretty huge.

Switching between views is a pretty basic function... it's one of the things that I wanted to make highly visible and not really hidden away or too cryptic.


In the future at some point I'd like to experiment with some kind of pop-up toolbar, but I'm not so sure it would be practical to put the whole view tabs in there, they kind of take up a lot of space. There could be a single button that would toggle between split and max views, but that still seems like it would be an awkward "summon the pop-up 2 times" to switch between maximized views.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.14 In reply to 2989.13 
Hi Michael,

> Switching between views is a pretty basic function...
> it's one of the things that I wanted to make highly
> visible and not really hidden away or too cryptic.

I agree, you could also have both options.

> In the future at some point I'd like to experiment
> with some kind of pop-up toolbar, but I'm not so
> sure it would be practical to put the whole view
> tabs in there, they kind of take up a lot of space.

It's not original but it's quite handy, I was thinking something along these lines.



Cheers
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.15 In reply to 2989.14 
Hi Danny,

> I agree, you could also have both options.

Yes, that's possible. But with a complex option like a pop-up UI it sort of needs to give a pretty big benefit to justify the redundancy.

The current method just does not seem to be an impediment - there are some qualities about it that make it work smoothly, like it is always in the same area of the screen and the buttons are quite large which makes them easier to acquire with the mouse.

Do you possibly have your UI shrunken down to a small size? If so you may want to go to Options / General / UI size and increase it a bit to make the buttons easier to hit.

Also it is just not that common to actually switch the view at a really rapid pace, like it is not common that you need to switch it once every few seconds. You may need to do it rapidly in some special circumstances but generally not at a continued pace. It's more common to stick in one view for a little while as you draw things there, etc...


> It's not original but it's quite handy, I was thinking
> something along these lines.

I don't know - that's quite a lot of "UI cost" - it would take up a special action slot that could then not be used for anything else. I try to be conservative about using those things up, this case just does not seem to provide enough payback.

I'm also not sure how it would help you in the pen stylus case - currently left click and right click are already taken with different actions. Something like this would probably go on a middle click, but you probably don't have a middle click available on your stylus?

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.16 In reply to 2989.15 
Hi Michael,

Ok, you have some valid points there, I'm just going by what other vendors are adding to they're software and the fact that I'm using a tablet PC more often and noticed this.

> I'm also not sure how it would help you
> in the pen stylus case - currently left
> click and right click are already taken
> with different actions. Something like
> this would probably go on a middle click,
> but you probably don't have a middle
> click available on your stylus?

The action I'm familiar with is actually using the RMB and not actually clicking the button but to hold it down for a second then the popup will appear then you mouse over the icon you want and upon release you call that command.

Thanks for looking at this anyway, meanwhile I've hooked up my spacenavigator which has a couple of programmable buttons :)

Cheers
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.17 In reply to 2989.16 
Hi Danny,

> I'm just going by what other vendors are adding
> to they're software

Is that something new in NX6?

Did they previously have any control available at the top level UI for switching views like MoI's view tab control?

It seems like something like you are describing might get added into a system that did not already have an easy way to switch views...


> The action I'm familiar with is actually using the RMB and
> not actually clicking the button but to hold it down for a
> second then the popup will appear then you mouse over
> the icon you want and upon release you call that command.

Yeah, that could be a possible triggering action.

I've been a little hesitant to rely on that action too much since it can be slightly odd to "hold still" when you are actually trying to do things quickly.

I also worry a bit about it possibly getting triggered accidentally when the actual intent was to right drag to pan or rotate a view.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.18 In reply to 2989.17 
Hi Michael,

> Is that something new in NX6?
No, implemented about 3 versions ago.

> Did they previously have any control available
> at the top level UI for switching views like
> MoI's view tab control?

Yes there has always been a toolbar for this.

> I also worry a bit about it possibly getting
> triggered accidentally when the actual intent
> was to right drag to pan or rotate a view.

Ah yes, that's the difference, NX6 always uses the MMB for rotation.

-
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2989.19 In reply to 2989.18 
Hi Danny,

> Ah yes, that's the difference, NX6 always uses the MMB for rotation.

What is used for panning and zooming then in NX6?

One priority I had for MoI was to try and make rotate, pan and zoom with the mouse be all immediately available and not require modifier keys, although there are several modifier keys that do work for people who are used to using them in other software.

So in MoI:

Right drag = Rotate 3D viewport or Pan in a 2D view.
Middle drag = Pan in either kind of viewport.
Scroll wheel = zoom


These view manipulations are actions that you may want to do at a very frequent rate, so they basically got the highest priority.

Other things that you may not need to do at such a high frequency can actually be good to not try to super optimize to be as fast as possible because if you don't do them too often it does not really gain you much in the big picture to have them super optimized (By super optimized I mean something like trying to make them happen in 1 second instead of 2 seconds or something like that).

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2989.20 In reply to 2989.19 
Hi Michael,

> What is used for panning and zooming then in NX6?

Firstly, in NX we predominantly work in the 3D view all the time.
The buttons used:

Right drag = No view action, popups.
Middle drag = Rotate
Middle+Right drag = Pan
Middle scroll = Zoom

-
~Danny~
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