Hi olio,

> When I model in Moi, I feel handicapped in the way
> I need to find a icon for everything I do,

Well yes, using icons is normally part of a GUI or "Graphical User Interface"... :)


> sometime I need to pick a categorie first then find the
> button, then press a sub command.

It's not really a big problem when you only need to open categories every once in a while.

Since a category stays open once you have activated it, if you need to use other related commands from that same category you don't need to open anything for those additional uses.

That's one reason why MoI's system is a lot better than a traditional drop-down menu at the top of the screen, which forces you to always open the menu over and over again in all cases, since the drop-down part disappears after every use.


> In Rhino I never use the toolbars, I type everything. in that
> respect I find that working in Rhino has the best and fastest UI.

Sounds like you should set up some keyboard shortcuts in MoI, that way you can launch a command by just a single keypress.

Note that MoI supports using just a single character like "E" as a shortcut key. In Rhino that does not work because of the command-line interface.


> Is there a reason Michael of why Moi is not allowing
> typed commands?

Well, it wasn't a priority because it is not really what "normal" applications use.

For example when you are in a word processor, do you go somewhere and type-in "bold" when you want to make something bold? Or do you use a shortcut key or an icon button for that?


Actually though like Burr mentions you can type in commands in v2 if you want, if you press Tab first to put focus in the entry box.


There is also an option in the most recent v2 beta that will treat any typing as a command-line type entry so you don't need to push Tab. To set that up, edit the moi.ini file (there is a button for that under Options / General) and set

[UI]
CommandLineTypeTextEntry=y


But basically that kind of type-in mechanism is a very AutoCAD-centric type workflow. Unlike with Rhino it has just not been a priority to make MoI set up similar to AutoCAD, since that interface is pretty antiquated and not really friendly to users who have not already learned and spend a lot of time in AutoCAD.

- Michael

Hi olio,

> what about a autocomplete list?

Having a big autocomplete list pop up is probably a good indicator that there are too many commands and things are just too complex...

So probably that would not be a part of MoI anytime too soon since the idea is to make MoI more streamlined and not get to that nasty level of complexity in the first place.


> or abbreviations of commands?

Well, that's what keyboard shortcuts are normally used for, that abbreviates a command to a single keystroke, you don't get much more abbreviated than that!

In the future I'll probably try to set up some method for type-in aliases though.

- Michael

Hi jonah,

> About the pre-selection, V4 actually does have pre-selection
> of faces and edges if you press SHIFT+CTRL+LMB.

Well, in order for the pre-selection to actually work in practice instead of only in theory, it needs to be a natural and efficient action.

The mechanism that you are mentioning here is nowhere remotely close to that, it's really hidden and also very awkward in use, look what happens in Rhino when you try to use it and hold down Shift+Ctrl+click:



Notice when you click that it pops up a selection menu with 8 things on it and if you want to select the edge you have to go down and pick that item off the menu?

And then it seems that you have to repeat that every single time you click another edge?

That seems pretty horrible to me, to the point of being unusable.


> This is an undocumented feature which I imagine will
> lead to improved command filtering down the road.

Sorry, I don't really see how you would think that - as far as I can tell I would not consider this to be a foundational piece, more the opposite of that - something that would need to be tossed out and redone in a completely different way to make it actually useful for real work.


At any rate, it took a lot of time early on to get MoI's selection mechanism working well. It was one of the major pieces that I spec'd out and also prototyped in a stand-alone application to make sure that it would work well as a foundation for command flow.


- Michael

Hi Michael. I wasn't try to compare this or that, so I hope you didn't take it that way. Just mentioning there is some form of it in place. Even though it has no practical use... ; )

Hi jonah,

> Just mentioning there is some form of it in place.

I see.... But I guess the way I look at it is if something is just completely unusable it is pretty much equivalent to it not existing at all.

That's one of the things that drive me crazy about bullet lists of features.

- Michael

>Not sure what that will look like but it's happening. But I hope it looks and works like Grasshopper's UI which is already very nice! :) So I doubt anything is really "impossible"...

Jonah here is an example of how Rhino's GUI look on a Ribbon UI http://vimeo.com/4742355

Also I have been using Rhino OSX and is really cool that they do not compromise. They are making a real OSX app following Cocoa UI guidelines closely...(not a clone). The only problem I see the winRhino users may get jealous :)

olio bottom line is Micheal needs time, MoI will get there...Look at the success his first project (Rhino) has had. Every major design Universities, Design Studio have more that one copy.

The only advice I can give is to find another tool that will bridge the gap...Patience my friend.

Moi is the best soft I've ever used.
Please continue on the same way.

Hello,

I hope so, I just had lunch with a couple software devs. They were going off about the perils and challenges of quality, testing, QA, outsourcing issues etc. that happen when different teams touch the software. I'm not sure what the complaint revolves around, MG is visible and well connected to the user base. Forget anything about a Mac version, it is a money losing diversion supporting anything other than the dominant OS. Keep doing what you are doing, I would rather have a small set of working features than a large set of half baked ones any day. Thanks again for the excellent software.

"it is a money losing diversion supporting anything other than the dominant OS" What!?

I wonder why Adobe, Autodesk, Mcneel and even Microsoft (office) see the point in supporting something other that the dominant OS!.

It's a crazy statement.

neo wrote: "here is an example of how Rhino's GUI look on a Ribbon UI"

BLECHHH!!!! I don't like the ribbon idea. McNeel actually did show a prototype of Rhino on the ribbon at Sigg 2007, and a bunch of people responded with a big resounding "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!". But i got the feeling that the ribbon will not be the end result of what they're doing. If it is, I'll happily stick with using my hotkeys and popup menu scripts and I'll hide the stupid ribbon... Grasshopper uses the ribbon too, but I don't mind it so much there as i have when using other software (such as Spaceclaim) because GH ribbon icons are quite small. But the Grasshopper viewport uses vector graphics for it's node components so it remains very scalable. I'm hoping to see the same kind of UI scalability as found in MoI...

Hello,

Just because you want a Mac version of something doesn't make it practical or responsible from a financial or time angle, especially in the current situation we are discussing. I doubt TSS has the budget or manpower of the companies you mentioned. To call my statement "crazy" shows your lack of understanding of the market in general, and business rules in particular.

My suggestion is to buy Parallels, a legitimate copy of Windows and MoI and enjoy.

>>>>I wonder why Adobe, Autodesk, Mcneel and even Microsoft (office) see the point in supporting something other that the dominant OS!. >>>

These companies, with multi million dollar budgets, lose HUGE money doing this! These are some of the reasons that these mega corps go belly up. Can you imagine a company with 100's of millions of dollars in annual revenue failing?? Hahaha.

It should be a business decision, not political.

Well for the record mate, I only stated that not being able to make a mac version as one of the reasons why it may be a poor decision to stay as the only developer...

I have no real interest in Moi becoming a Mac application, although I think it would be a success on that platform. The lack of resources implied, when giving reasons for Moi to stay a one man company isn't exactly encouraging, it isn't like Moi3d is booming on windows is it? So if people are comfortable with a small niche product that is tied to a one particular OS, with a few hundred user, then fine. Lets hope Michael continues his pet project....

"These companies, with multi million dollar budgets, lose HUGE money doing this!"

What? are you kidding?, are they making a mac version of their products from the goodness of their hearts then?, give me a break!

In these days, it's a poor judgment not making a program cross platform, especially a program geared towards designers and artists...IMHO

>>>>it isn't like Moi3d is booming on windows is it? So if people are comfortable with a small niche product that is tied to a one particular OS, with a few hundred user, then fine.>>>

A gross underestimation!!! With no vision of what MoI is under the hood?

>>>What? are you kidding?, are they making a mac version of their products from the goodness of their hearts then?>>>

Actually, it is when these companies get so large the decisions become "political", not responsible.

It's actually a "Classic Scenario" that it not new in any way. This is fundamental to this thread and its point.

BTW:

The Mac is a "failed product". They abandoned there original product concept and moved to the same platform as "WINDOWS" and now is basically an "Application" running on UNIX. THe only reason they are still in business today is not because of the mac, but the IPOD, and the Govt' crushing of Napster.

Hello,

Uh, yes, BurrMan is correct on the software revenue front. Thankfully, companies are realizing that supporting these niche platforms link Mac OS are poor financial decisions. Since Mac users can boot Windows there is absolutely no motivation for any developer to provide Mac support. Consider it just another Mac "tax".

This much is clear olio, IMO you have very little grasp of business rules, you have little experience with market realities, and I would venture to say you have never owned a business in your life. What is unclear to me is what your objective is here? I would hope you have something positive to contribute, rather than knocking an excellent piece of software.

Let's try not to turn this into a Mac flame war thread please.

There have actually been quite a large number of requests for a Mac MoI version - my general sense from the level of e-mail requests and such is that there would be a big enough marketplace to sustain a Mac version.

So I really wish that I could do one!

But the time and work investment involved is just too much for me - also I just do not personally have a background or any experience in Mac development so it would take a pretty substantial amount of time just to learn about it.

So it is just not feasible to do from a resources or amount of time involved type standpoint for my particular situation.


Olio - I'm not sure why you think having a niche product is such a bad thing. I have no problem with MoI being a kind of finely crafted "boutique" product that works really well for a somewhat smaller user base rather than selling a million copies.

I've done the "million copies" thing before when I was at Microsoft, and it's not really a specific goal of mine anymore, it tends to be rather cold and impersonal. It can be a lot more rewarding to connect with a somewhat smaller (not too small though! :) user base where I can be more involved with users and enable them to do some cool things.

Things are not set in stone though, it's not that I am 100% opposed to growing MoI in size and scope, but at the same time it is not some intense overriding goal which you seem to think it should be.

One of my #1 goals for producing MoI is to have fun doing a cool product.

- Michael

Thanks Michael for stepping in.

Burrman:) common the mac a failed product because they changed their processor type or? I dont understand people who can have such hate against a company, that you clearly state or is it somethibg against me because you think i am a mac fanboy;)

and to the other guy, do i need to have degree in Business to state my thoughts here, mayby you can enlighten me with your overwhelming knowledge and experience, only thing you have showed are better english languge skills than have and can therefor be more articulate.

I love moi, i asked this question because of my concern that moi is not making progress but Michael have Made things clear, and i respect that

i am unclear about is why you attack me peesonaly and my knowledge of business, but i think that daga more abou you than me