A possible tweak?
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.2 In reply to 2889.1 
Hi Burr, I'm not quite sure if I follow what you're doing there - it looks like you have created a construction line during some of the steps and then are snapping a point back on to it?

That basically creates a degenerate input situation, so that's why you don't get any result in that case. There isn't a recognizable angle formed if the reference points are stacked up on the same spot.

If you don't create the construction line it will probably help to avoid that unwanted snap somewhat?

You can just pick the 2 points of the axis along that direction, it isn't necessary to create a construction line for the axis.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.3 In reply to 2889.2 
I didnt create a construction line. I think it's a "straight Snap" that just pops in.

Agagin, I can rotate the view around to get to that point, but at certain angles in the 3d view, the straight snap kicks up and does that if I'm trying to pick "Through it".

It's not a big deal for me. I know how to work around it.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.4 In reply to 2889.3 
Hi Burr, I'm kind of confused about the construction line part, because this widget that was in your screenshot here:



is something that is only supposed to show up after you have created a construction line, it should not be appearing just on a "straight snap" line.


Also just to be sure, are you talking about the regular "Rotate", or "Rotate Axis" here?

But actually for both of them the vertical straight snap is supposed to be turned off for the reference point picks to avoid getting that kind of degenerate situation too easily... That part seems to be working over here as expected, so I may need a kind of more step-by-step instructions to follow to see what's going on with your situation.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.5 In reply to 2889.4 
Hi Michael,
Looks like I did draw a construction line there. So with the regular rotate, it only disappears if I hit the snap points of the object at that axis point. Straight snap does still hit on the x and y axis though.

For the Axis rotate, it snaps when I hit the pick line, or the opposite Tan side of that pick line.

I am on the computer that had issues with running commands from the command entry point. I will go test it on another computer and if it is the same, I will make a quick video to illustrate. If not, I'll have to apologize again and remember to test my issues before I report :O
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.6 In reply to 2889.5 
Hi Burr,

> Straight snap does still hit on the x and y axis though.

Yup, but those ones are intentional to have if straight snap is enabled, since it makes it easier to do things like 90 degree rotations with the mouse, similar to how having straight snap enabled lets you draw a line at 90 degree increments as well.

It is still possible to get an object snap point that is degenerate, but those are more isolated in location and won't tie up as large of an area of the screen as a degenerate straight snap line will tend to do. Maybe in the future I can screen those out too, but I tend to worry much more about having unwanted straight snap lines in these situations.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.7 In reply to 2889.6 
Hi Michael,
Well I already made the video, so I'll post it. I was merly posting in case you needed the looksee. Doesnt interfere to much with anything I do.

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.8 In reply to 2889.7 
Hi Burr, thanks for posting the video, that really helps clear up what you are running into.

That snap line that you are getting that you don't want is called "Axis snap" which is one of the object snaps - it's a feature that makes picked points snap on to the x and y axes of the construction plane similar as if there were lines drawn along them. If you look closely at the object snap text there (the little text label near the mouse), it is saying "On x" when you are near the cplane's x axis line, and "On y" when you are near the cplane's y axis line. When axis snap kicks in it also shows a dashed line on that axis as an additional visual indication that it is activated (a similar kind of line is displayed when straight snap kicks in too).

It can be helpful for other situations when you want to do things aligned to the major grid axis lines, but in this case it is getting in your way.

There are a few different methods you can use to avoid that.

1 - hold down the Alt key which suppresses snapping. If you just hold down Alt you should get much smoother behavior without any snaps kicking in.

2 - turn off "Object snap" by clicking in the bottom toolbar to unhighlight it.

3 - turn off the "Axis" type of object snapping which you can do by the little arrow that pops up when you move your mouse over top of the "Object snap" button on the bottom toolbar.

You don't need to do all of those - just any one of those should solve that problem for you. Probably Alt is the easiest though since it doesn't disturb any settings which you might need to re-activate later.


Rotate works in a kind of planar fashion, after your first pick, any object snaps after that are projected to the plane going through the origin point, that's what causes the behavior that you see there. But it can be useful in some situations to have this kind of projection to snap relative to other objects even though they are on different elevations, that's why those snaps that are off the plane are not just ignored - that enables things like this:




You can see in that situation it was useful to be able to grab a reference point that was projected to the rotation plane, but that's the same thing that is causing you difficulty. There is always the chance for snaps to get in the way, but that's where there are those different mechanisms to turn them off to open things up for free movement.

Does that explain what you are running into and give you some other solutions for it?

Unfortunately it is not so easy to just remove this feature without also removing snapping functionality that can be useful in other situations like shown above.

- Michael

EDITED: 29 Aug 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.9 In reply to 2889.7 
Hi Burr, I guess it would also be possible to implicitly disable only axis snap when in this kind of planar projection point pick type situation in the 3D view.

That may be feasible, if it is only axis snap that is disabled it would still allow the other kinds of snap projections like I showed previously.

I'll think about that a bit more tommorrow.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.10 In reply to 2889.9 
Hi Michael,
Actually the ALt Key disable was good. That is a great solution already. I know there are a few of those that I'm not proficient with yet. I'm sure this one will stick now! :O

Also know now to slow a bit and pay more attention to what the snap lines are in these different situations, as I thought they were one thing and learned they were doing something else! Your point picker becomes more powerful everyday!

If only "that" can be disabled and it is not really "functional in the rotate command", then maybe I contributed something useful....You will know best to consider all the Variables (I dont think that far out nor do I know all the scenarios possible). If it has function though, it shouldnt be removed.

Again, the Alt solves it.

Thanks for looking.
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.11 In reply to 2889.10 
Be sure to make a spot, when you finish MoI and begin working on documentation, to list all the modifier keys. :O
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.12 In reply to 2889.11 
Hi Burr,

> Be sure to make a spot, when you finish MoI and begin
> working on documentation, to list all the modifier keys. :O

Yup, there is actually a page in the Wiki devoted to that already here:
http://moi3d.com/wiki/Shortcut_Keys

I had forgot to mention the Alt overriding snapping there, but I've updated it now.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2889.13 In reply to 2889.12 
MoI Bien...Boca Ratton...Haleluja....Happy days are here again! :O
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2889.14 In reply to 2889.10 
Hi Burr,

> If only "that" can be disabled and it is not really "functional
> in the rotate command", then maybe I contributed
> something useful....

I had a chance to dig into this some today, and I think that just this situation can be safely disabled.

The Axis or "on" snaps are not really useful in this kind of situation where the command is working on a particular plane and that "on" or "axis" snap point is off the plane and getting projected back on to it.

So I've got that particular thing disabled for the next v2 beta.

It is still possible for you to get some similar jumping around though if you hit a variety of other snaps like "end", "mid", etc... - but projecting those ones are potentially useful so I don't want to do an automatic disable of those (you can do a quick disable of those too if you want by holding Alt same as now).

But the axis snap can tend to affect a pretty large area of the screen, so it should help things work better to not have them kicking in for these situations.

Thanks for posting about the problem and for making the video, that helped a lot in making this improvement, it was definitely a useful contribution!

- Michael
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