New lighting model WIP
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 From:  BurrMan
2801.78 In reply to 2801.76 
Michael,
Have you already an idea of where the lighting will be implemented and in what way?

It appears to be a style? some objects can have this and others can be normal style? Not just a viewport implementation?
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.79 In reply to 2801.78 
Hi Burr - no for now at least it won't be able to be set on a per-object basis, it's a global setting that controls everything in the viewports.

Maybe in the future it can get set by style, but that could possibly have some performance difficulties.

I'm kind of getting an idea of where this will go in the UI, probably there will be some stuff in Options / View to control the default light setup, I should be digging into that pretty soon here.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2801.80 In reply to 2801.79 
God man, DIG! I dont know if the dilithium crystals can take much more!
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 From:  neo
2801.81 In reply to 2801.77 
>Specialized? I think most people buy MoI because it has a powerfull UI and its simple... not "specialized"
>I hope MoI become more and more simple and powerfull, not become an elite specialized tool like Rhino.

Last think I would call Rhino is "elite specialized tool"...on the other hand Alias Surface is what you call "elite specialized tool"

>I dont use Zebra, I never used it, only discovered it in Rhino. If im asking for Zebra its not for me, its for people who need to check for continuity.
>I never do class A surfaces and I never care about G1, G2 and G3. I agree that its not as practical as the metal one, its a specialized tool so it cant be good for full time modeling.
>By the way Zebra can be good looking too (Alias design screenshot)

I see...But you understand class A surfaces etc. is what DESIGNER demand/dream from a Nurbs app. like MoI. Anyway even if you are a Visual artist if those rules not applied The outcome will not be "smooth"...Seams will be visible even were you have applied simple fillets...BUT I'm sure you know all that already :)
Is also ironic you show an Show an alias zebra screenshot and not a Rhino one :)
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 From:  Samuel Zeller
2801.82 In reply to 2801.81 
Yeah because I found Rhino one uglier aha :D
Alias one is a mix of lighthing and zebra, I found it very cool looking.

"But you understand class A surfaces etc"

Yeah I read a lot about 3d in production, films etc... Im a geek :)

EDITED: 27 Jul 2009 by SAMUEL ZELLER

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 From:  neo
2801.83 In reply to 2801.75 
I know Jonah But those developers get paid and I think most people who invest to Rhino is for the Modeling tools...That's where their main focus should be IMO.

file I/O...Here is funny example, Rhino to SolidWorks. Last time I tried SW would not read a simple surface coming from Rhino...The remedy, Open .3DM in MoI re-save and VOILA it now opens in SW.

BUT I'm OFFTOPIC here, so lets use pm if necessary :)
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 From:  vodkamartini
2801.84 In reply to 2801.79 
> I'm kind of getting an idea of where this will go
> in the UI, probably there will be some stuff in
> Options / View to control the default light setup,
> I should be digging into that pretty soon here.

As in a place to alter the light parameters (ala Rhino) or as a simple combobox to choose between "diffuse" and "metallic"? If you made the light parameters accessible via the javascript interface I can imagine someone creating a plugin where a dialog window pops up with preview icons allowing users to easily select different custom lighting schemes.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.85 In reply to 2801.84 
Hi vodkamartini,

> As in a place to alter the light parameters (ala Rhino) or as
> a simple combobox to choose between "diffuse" and "metallic"?

I think probably a bit of a mixture.

The current thing I'm thinking of would be to have a combo box which would control a few predefined choices for intensities, something like:

Default key + fill lights
Key + more fill
Key + less fill
Key light only
Custom key + fill levels
Hemispheric

Then a checkbox for "Metallic", and another checkbox for "Specular highlights".

For a couple of choices (Custom key + fill levels and Specular highlights) there would be some additional slider controls that would pop up to allow some fine tuning. (note that this may be one of the benefits of having procedural generation that I was talking about previously).


But I'm still not quite sure yet, I am nearly ready to see if the ideas for this will work or not.


It looks like one remaining overall problem is that with intensities set up that make colorized surfaces look good, regular white models look rather too bright, almost cell shaded.


> If you made the light parameters accessible via the javascript
> interface I can imagine someone creating a plugin where a dialog
> window pops up with preview icons allowing users to easily select
> different custom lighting schemes.

I don't know... right now they're specified numerically by a bunch of angular rotations, and I don't really think you're going to get a lot of control for significantly different variations without more detailed control over the number of lights, intensities of each of them, etc... rather than just altering the angles of the existing ones.

That would end up being a pretty in depth script interface to control all the details.

It seems like it would be better to focus on supporting reading in image maps (in the future) for getting customized lighting schemes instead of that.

- Michael
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 From:  vodkamartini
2801.86 In reply to 2801.85 
Gotcha. I like the variety of options you're planning, and it sounds like you're trying to make it more user friendly than Rhino's vector + diffuse + spec inputs.




In terms of a scripting interface, my first thought would have been to just accept an array of light objects that you can loop through. So javascript-wise the above rhino settings might look something like:

lights = [];
lights[0] = {
    direction: {x: 1, y: 0.8, z: -0.5},
    color: {r: 214, g: 214, b: 214},
    spec: {r: 146, g: 146, b: 146}
};
lights[1] = {
    direction: {x: -1, y: -0.5, z: 0},
    color: {r: 0, g: 0, b: 0},
    spec: {r: 115, g: 115, b: 115}
};
lights[2] = {
    direction: {x: -1, y: -0.8, z: 0.5},
    color: {r: 100, g: 100, b: 100},
    spec: {r: 0, g: 0, b: 0}
};
moi.lightingEngine.setLights(lights);


Of course your lights might have different properties than Rhino's depending on the types you allow (point, directional, spot, etc). Anyway, it's not a big deal in the end. I was just tossing out an idea since you were working in that area.
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.87 In reply to 2801.86 
Hi vodkamartini,

> and it sounds like you're trying to make it more user
> friendly than Rhino's vector + diffuse + spec inputs.

Yes, definitely! The one that you show there is kind of a disaster as far as usability is concerned.

You actually could not even do the one I'm currently messing with in MoI there because it's made up of 12 lights - 1 key light, then 10 low intensity fill lights distributed evenly between 2 locations, and then one additional fill.

It can help a lot to have some distributed ranges of lights, and it's not so convenient to try and manage a bunch of those individually listed in a dialog.

What I'm hoping to do is to have 2 sliders which you can adjust, one for the intensity of the key light, and another for the combined intensity of the 11 fill lights. But I have not got that quite set up yet.

The current script interface for setting the light direction (moi.view.lightDirection) still works to set the direction of the key light and the fill lights will move relative to it when it is altered.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2801.88 In reply to 2801.87 
And then of course, in the theme of "Lama Mode", you can have a hidden "Disco Mode" where all 12 lights strobe around the dance viewport! :O
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 From:  PaQ
2801.89 In reply to 2801.88 
Hi Michael,

The new metal looks cool, but seems to add some dark zone on the front of planar geometry ?
I mean the front face of the blue boxes on your example looks really dark here.

Anyway, it's a really cool shading alternative :)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.90 In reply to 2801.89 
Hi PaQ,

> I mean the front face of the blue boxes on your example
> looks really dark here.

The metallic style one changes in color more rapidly in response to view angles than the regular style lighting, so a fairly small rotation would change the color there quite a bit.

That particular angle is about the darkest that it would get, but also if you adjust the lighting to be stronger it would limit that, but also make for some less contrast in shading on curved shapes.

The metallic style doesn't really feel that great on boxy things, it seems like it will be more interesting on curvy things.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.91 
Made some good progress on the lighting UI, there are several prepackaged choices but you can also choose to customize the intensities with some sliders to fine tune it.

In addition to the various intensities of Key + Fill lighting, there are also "Hemispheric" and "Headlight" types, here's a demo:



- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2801.92 In reply to 2801.91 
Ok! Ok! stop teasing.

Now that that you've got this sorted Michael, is it easy to throw in a few more 'enviro' maps in there :)

---------
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.93 In reply to 2801.92 
Hi Danny, I still have the specular part left to do, so not quite all finished yet but getting there.

In the future I would like to have additional environment maps available, but I don't think that will happen for v2 though.

- Michael
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 From:  WillBellJr
2801.94 
It doesn't get much better than this!

And I thought I was straight after the surface assignments!


Can't wait for the next drop!

-Will
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 From:  Grendel
2801.95 
This looks great Michael, I was content with just your light flip script but you really kicked it up a notch. As far as the custom lighting goes would be be able to save a custom light set up or two possibly?
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2801.96 In reply to 2801.95 
Hi Grendel,

> This looks great Michael, I was content with just your light
> flip script but you really kicked it up a notch.

Thanks! Actually that old flip light direction script will still work, but yes the idea is that it should not be necessary anymore since there are now multiple fill lights that help to illuminate the dark sides.

There is kind of a trade-off though with more light also meaning less contrast, so that's why I wanted to set up a variety of choices and adjustments.


> As far as the custom lighting goes would be be able to save
> a custom light set up or two possibly?

It's possible to set up a shortcut key script that will do anything that you see there in the UI, so you could have a couple of different keys that would set things to particular values.

Also another idea is that this UI I showed above would be for setting your normal default lighting, and then there will maybe be a different thing under the View palette that will let you flip between some different view modes that would temporarily override both lighting and things like surface colors too.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
2801.97 In reply to 2801.96 
Remember Grendel, Anything that you can put in a shortcut command, you can save in a js file and place a "scripts" folder in the root of MoI, then just type that name in the command area to get it. So no need to fill up keys, just call by your personal name like, "Garden", "Automotive or whatever!

FYI
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