Why dont using Inkscape type of guides? (its free, install it and try guides) Just for inspiration.
Its just like the guides in photoshop vertical or horizontal but it has a point somewhere on the line that you can drag to re-position
the line, also this point can be moved on the line (the point can be moved horizontally on an horizontal guide, vertically on a vertical one)

Why not making clines that work that way with a button in the ui...

1. Click on the cline button.
2. Click on a first point, then on a second point, an infinite line is drawn between the two.
optional 2.1 (to snap the two points, you could also use the current clines that are already in MoI (the help lines) to help you positioning the two points))
3. You can move these points at any time just like other points, the line is always straight.
4. But you can also move the two points at the same time, or the whole line to move it parrallels.

Basically it would be like click'n'drag like the actual help lines in MoI but it would create lines that stay, also it would be cool
to be able to change the color in the MoI options. And these lines would be auto-locked, to move it instead of click just click once on it to delock and show the 2 points, then click on points to move them or on the line to move it or select the two points and move, if you click or select any other things the line would just lock itself automatically.

Also using a shortcut that show/hide clines would be very cool, like the photoshop default one ctrl-h cmd-h.

Hi DesuDeus, yes actually part of the discussion above is about having a cline command similar to what you are describing.

But the first priority for clines was to have something that was very quick to activate, that's why I did not want to rely on a separate icon off to the side of the viewport for their normal regular use.

With the current mechanism, the activation of a cline is very quickly available to you with a simple mouse gesture, you don't have to move all the way over to the edge of the screen to get one. That quick activation helps to make it easy to really quickly pop in a cline more seamlessly and fluidly while in the middle of drawing.

- Michael

Hi DesuDeus, also one other note on clines - it is actually possible in MoI to set up clines that stick around by setting up a plugin or using some keyboard shortcut scripts.

There is a plugin available here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1029.1
that will set up a custom command that lets you draw clines that stay until you clear them.

Also you can set up a keyboard shortcut with the script mentioned here:
http://kyticka.webzdarma.cz/3d/moi/#KeepCLine
which will let you set up a key that will keep the clines that you created during a command rather than letting them get erased as they normally do.

If you'd like some more flexibility with clines right now, you might want to set up one or both of those to get some additional functionality in the current version.

- Michael

Yes interesting discussion - this is what makes Micheal so cool - he listens and discusses features with his users!

Hi Michael,

>> Well not exactly - I'm suggesting that there could possibly be just _one_ additional
>> icon for a "clines" command similar to the current plugin.

Yes I agree, but I forgot this would be new as I already have one for the script - so it wasn't additional for me :-)

>> From what I understood about what you were mentioning previously, you were asking about having a
>> cline command similar to that current custom command, and also in addition to that a completely separate
>> "lock clines" additional button... That's a 2 times increase in buttonage!

Yes you are right. I was.

>>That's even another issue that needs to be worked out - should there be a special "cline" command
>> that would let you draw in clines without needing to be within some other command to make
>> them? (this is like that custom command)

YES. Absolutely, completely separate from the on-the-fly clines.

>> Or should there be a "keep clines" button that would just let you keep the clines you have
>> created inside the current command? That's rather different.

NO, this would be a nuisance. As Will said, it is good to lay down a few guides at the start (standard drawing technique). Would be a pain if you had to kick off a command just to get some construct lines.

To re-cap:

. new command to create a persistent cline.
. clines can be moved by dragging or deleted by pressing DEL - can do this today
. clines can be manipulated via the current cline menu - menu exists today but is not implemented for persistent clines
. persistent clines can be locked/unlocked - would need 2 new commands (lock and unlock), either shortcut or icon

So this looks like 3 new commands to be added to the UI. Could be reduced down to 2 icons, add cline and lock/unlock which could work same as hide/unhide.


I have no idea how much work it would be but, for V2, I would settle for a new command to create a persistent cline that has the little re-orient menu with no icon (I can add my own if I want as long as there is a command there). There's already ways to delete all the lines, move them and delete them.

For Michael, (edit: not seen the previous 2 messages)
Yes I fully understand that, but before using the click'n'drag I was using simples lines and duplicates or move or mirror very fast.
And I still use them because I want permanent constructions lines that I can put in a style and show/hide them and lock them.
I already model pretty fast, modelling faster would create problems and errors from my side.
Instead of an Icon maybe a shortcut would do it? Like key+click

Or to get back to the original request (line from center) why not have a key to press while drawing a line to enable symettry, or a check box like make copy in the rotation tool? That would resolve many problems.

By the way keep the click'n'drag help lines they are cool, but I miss regular lines that are physically there and that react like normal lines.
If we look at the UI there's plenty of drawing tools that start from the center point, why not having a line? Its the less cluttered drop menu of all the 2d tools.

What im trying to say is that I worked for a long time without using the help lines in MoI but using traditionnal paper drawing techniques, all the people have different workflows for sure, what would be very different between help lines and lines from center point is that you would be able to change the angle and see the preview result in real time, for drafting or designing its very usefull.

Again im just a customer, MoI is already the best in his category and price range, Rhino is slow, T-splines are buggy, Maya nurbs are ugly like the maya interface, Catia is too much to pay as Alias studio as Solidworks. So even If I had money I'll go for MoI, I even use MoI instead of illustrator for doing techy drawings. Where I work a lot of people are impressed by MoI already :) But they dont do Nurbs :(

The whole problem is that MoI is already very stuffed, you can already do all the basic things and more complex things (still miss t-splines :P), its gonna be hard to keep the simplicity of the UI and the simplicity of the tools. But maybe in the futur if MoI have a liquid UI where you can drag'n'drop icons, people would make their own interface so having more and more tools will not be a real problem.

Hi Tony,

> So this looks like 3 new commands to be added to the UI.
> Could be reduced down to 2 icons, add cline and lock/unlock
> which could work same as hide/unhide.

Even 2 icons is a lot - that's pretty much a good example of the kind of thing that I would prefer to wait for a better overall design to try and squeeze it down to 1 icon instead.

Having the "lock/unlock" function be implicitly engaged while that command was running (similar to background bitmaps) would be one way to achieve that. Right now that seems to be the best candidate for compromise between flexibility and UI space, but maybe something different will be possible with more effort and focus on the design in the future.


> I have no idea how much work it would be but, for V2,

Well, quite a lot to a good job designing the UI and various mechanisms to try and keep the overall program UI simple and not get bogged down with feature bloat...

UI design is one of the most difficult and time consuming things that I work on, really.

That's why this is good to discuss to get some ideas for future directions, but there is not really any hope to be able to actually finish this for v2 at all though.

- Michael

Hi DesuDeus,

> Instead of an Icon maybe a shortcut would do it? Like key+click

Usually for something like that, there would be an icon for it, and you could optionally set up a keyboard shortcut for it if you wished.

You can actually set up a keyboard shortcut now for making persistent lines by installing this plugin which it sounds like you would be interested in:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1029.1


> Or to get back to the original request (line from center) why not
> have a key to press while drawing a line to enable symettry, or a
> check box like make copy in the rotation tool? That would resolve
> many problems.

Just because it is not necessary, since it is so quick to get the same result by using a construction line.

The construction line method is also a general purpose solution that works within any command, not just a special option that is limited to only the line command.

For example here I use it to draw a square positioned at a midpoint:



Another example - here drawing an arc balanced around a midpoint:


It's better to have that one general mechanism that works in all drawing commands, than to try and have a special option that is duplicated in the UI for every command.

Anyway, that is the reason why there is not currently an alternate mechanism for it.

But I have thought some in the past about adding one in just for the line command to help people who haven't learned about using construction lines.

I still may do that, I'm not quite sure - I tend to hesitate quite a bit before adding in additional UI because it tends to be difficult to remove things later and adding in too many unnecessary things generally leads to bloating the UI and making it more complex.

- Michael

(edit: just seen your last post, well I agree but what about having them inside a group? Maybe for exporting the model and the clines toghether?)

Michael, if you want some kind of help (because you dont have time to) in UI design its also part of my job, I do mockups (bitmap or vector) for web and desktop applications.
Im a graphic designer before being a 3d artist, im totally not a programmer that's why I mostly do mockups.
Speaking of UI the first problem I see is "why blue?" :P It reminds me the horible windows products like office and vista.
Also I know you're not a designer but the MoI website is not as good as MoI is in term of power. Its like having a very good product at is core but a bad packaging, I remember the first time Ive seen MoI and the website ive thought "is that nurbs for kids?" well obviously not but it makes me laugh.
The best UI ive seen are After Effects cs4 (when set to dark), Modo 401, and Nuke wich is pretty strange but not eye distracting.
When I work all the day with MoI my eyes are sometimes hurting, Ive already set up the grid and the background to grey shades :)

Here's one of the latest website design ive worked on (www.lestudiodigital.com) Its strange, the client wanted something colorfull and pro looking. (L.S.D = Le Studio Digital) The center graphic is a mix of stock images and technical drawings.
I do mockups ready to be used by the code guy, I have all in separate layers. So if you need a freelance im here and im free mostly because Im 18 and I still have a lot of time and things to learn (well maybe having a lifetime MoI key for all the upgrades would do the trick) This example is bitmap but I can do exactly the same in vector (except for the center graphic obviously)
There's no watermarks, I hate them :D

Hi DesuDeus,


> Michael, if you want some kind of help (because you dont have
> time to) in UI design its also part of my job, I do mockups (bitmap
> or vector) for web and desktop applications.

It's very kind of you to offer!

But actually there are some benefits in taking time and kind of "growing" the UI more slowly rather than too rapidly, it can actually make for a better long term outcome.

A lot of the most important aspects in MoI are actually more about workflow and usability rather than so much focused on just the graphic design of the UI actually, although that is nice to have tuned up too of course.


> Speaking of UI the first problem I see is "why blue?"

Because it is a nice color? :)

I know it is much more in vogue to have dark colors, but actually I don't really like that as much, I find it kind of depressing.

But tastes vary a lot!


> Also I know you're not a designer but the MoI website is not
> as good as MoI is in term of power.

You should have seen what I had at first, the current one is a pretty big improvement! :)

But yes, I have not really had much time to spend on the web site, I wish that I could spend more time working on that as well as the software but there are only 24 hours in the day...

Probably after v2 is released I'll focus at least a little effort on making another pass at tuning it up.


> The best UI ive seen are After Effects cs4 (when set to dark), Modo 401,
> and Nuke wich is pretty strange but not eye distracting.
> When I work all the day with MoI my eyes are sometimes hurting, Ive
> already set up the grid and the background to grey shades :)

Sounds too dark and depressing - when you're working with something all day, it's nice for it to not feel like you're in a crypt or something... ;)

It's nice when the UI has a somewhat more refreshing and friendly feel to it, or at least an element of that instead of all just darkness...


Don't get me wrong, your example there looks great and very professional! But that's really not along the direction that I like to have for MoI though.

- Michael

Also, MoI's UI look and feel and colors are "TOTALLY CUSTOMIZABLE"! A great acheivment by the design.

While in its beta state you havnt seen the iterations of "Skins" but they have been done. When it's released maybe a few more will pop up that you like the look of.

I've seen "Pilou" show some different looks. Maybe he can demonstrate here now?

As far as the look I dont think you have to worry. Custom UI is a HUGE plus with MoI! You can even create your own graphics and replace, to make your own "buttons" "tabs" "text" and whatever. Most apps let you choose "Colors". MoI, far superior here :O

I agree, but behind changing colors and icons there's also the borders/shapes and overall layout of the UI.
The better interface is of course the one you can change, move panels, re-organize icons, change any of the UI colors etc..
But that's also more difficult to code it.

I dont find dark depressing, its been in all the pro applications for one thing, contrast for the eye.
This is just another exemple, Blender 2.5 mockups are dark and blue.


Of course MoI interface gonna change in time, and as I said if you need any icons (I do vectors ones) or mockups im there.
MoI need to be different vs other programs in term of UI, its already different. But sadly some people judge first by the UI.
And to be fair, I like the current UI and blue is not so terrible, but ive heard some people at my work asking me what I was doing in this program they never seen before. Just like if by the first sight it look non-pro, just like when sketchup started, some people sayed it was just a toy. This period of the web 2.0 and ugly flash website has made everyone aware of the design of things, people want apple because apple is "design".
But before the UI, the website need some work (for example the screenshots are old versions) the gallery could emphase more the work shown etc..
I know its ridiculous to try to make "pro" looking interface for programs that are poor, to make users buy them, to push more the interface to trick people into thinking its a great program when it actually lack of feature (the Delicious generation, glossy everywhere, 90% UI 10% features).

MoI is at the exact opposite, its really a great program that has an heavy potential and features, but lacks a little bit of ego :)
People that come in the MoI website must be saying "wow its so simple, I never thought nurbs where as simple as that"
Another website that I found is not at the same level as the program itself is Rhino website, but Rhino is far more into pro industry than MoI so a bad website doesn't matter because everyone know that Rhino is "a standard" in the industry.

MoI is not "a standard" in the industry yet but it will become one im sure, having a good UI and an attractive but still pro looking website are good points to the customer eyes. To start you should keep the current website look, but develop a bit more the "content" for example a features section, to make people see animations like the ones you put in the forum, that show every major features. Also put more informations about the MoI mesher because its an awesome "behind the scene" power of MoI. Making a good website is not about design, design is just the sugar on top, the apple website has a simple design but its awesomly build in term of layout, you have for all products complete informations and features with a lot of images/video and explanations.
Apple can take every little feature (for example the luminous keyboard) and make it a major one by using design tricks and words.

Im getting a little bit "off" the original topic there, I dont want to start a topic about Design so...
Keep the good work Michael, I dont know about the futur but im very sure that MoI is gonna become a major app into nurbs modelling soon :)

Hi DesuDeus,

> I agree, but behind changing colors and icons there's also
> the borders/shapes and overall layout of the UI.

Actually, all of that stuff is available to change, things like borders are also images that are inside of the \ui subfolder inside of MoI's main installation folder.

But that can be a pretty big job to maintain a tweaked UI, especially when I also make changes during a beta release cycle. However if you want to it is certainly possible.

For an example, see here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1521.1


> I dont find dark depressing,

I do!

It's not really an uncommon association.


> its been in all the pro applications for one thing, contrast for the eye.

Yes, it certainly has been the trend for awhile.

But it is a pretty unnatural presentation to have a dark background and white text. The vast majority of "natural" text that you see is with black text on a light background, for example in nearly any book that you might pick up. Or another example is Google's page, or if you draw with a pencil on a sheet of paper you will normally have a light background for that.

It's nice to have that more familiar kind of contrast, it just keeps things having more of a natural feeling.

It's also easy to run into serious readability problems when going away from the natural kind of presentation.

For example several areas in that Blender screenshot that you posted are quite difficult to read, especially the text that is mostly black on the dark background, like "SCULPT TOOLS" for example - that's lacking so much in contrast that it can't easily be seen anymore at a quick glance.

That kind of sacrifice of usability/legibility for style purposes is something that I try to stay away from.


> But sadly some people judge first by the UI.

Yes, that's true! But luckily it is very rare for me to receive complaints about the UI, most often people have a very favorable impression of it in general.

I've even had people remark that they changed the UI in some of their other programs to match MoI's color scheme after they saw it.


Of course, it is impossible to please 100% of people, and I actually gave up trying to do that a while ago.... ;)



> Just like if by the first sight it look non-pro, just like when sketchup
> started, some people sayed it was just a toy.

A lot of times people will say this not because of the graphic design, but rather if they see that it looks like it has a smaller set of tools and is not covered with a zillion buttons like a normal "pro" app.

But that's a problem that is not going to really go away with MoI because having an easy to use and approachable UI is one of the main goals of the program.

I think that there is a growing trend though where good workflow and ease of use is becoming more valued by professionals, so there is gradually less of an association with "easy to use" automatically is the same as "toy".


re: web site stuff -

I definitely do intend to tune up the web site, like I mentioned I hope to give it at least a little bit of attention when MoI v2 is released.

But at the moment, the focus is much more on the software and not on the web site, which I think is the right priority.

Thanks very much for the feedback!

- Michael

Seems there is another easy possibility for "help line" Cline etc... ;)
Seems if you take a color said "red" for "normal lines" + Browser you can use it as a sort of "help lines" for snap on them!
And you can you can use any sort of curves! (so more powerful that clines or normal "help lines" :)
And see / hidden easy with Browser
Am I wrong?

>> UI design is one of the most difficult and time consuming things that I work on, really.

Absolutely, and you are one of the few software engineers I have come across that understands this. In my time as an Interaction/Interface designer I found that a willingness to spend the time on the interaction (tends to be called workflow these days for some reason) and then on the interface to control that interaction, is very rare. It was the great interaction that first sold me on MoI.


>> Well, quite a lot to a good job designing the UI and various mechanisms to try and keep
>> the overall program UI simple and not get bogged down with feature bloat...

>>...but there is not really any hope to be able to actually finish this for v2 at all though


Actually I was thinking of a non UI based command that I could assign to a shortcut. No icon stuff at this time. Just a persistent version of the on the fly cline complete with mini menu (okay that's ui too but it already exists in some form). But perhaps that is too much to ask though :-(


Ever hopeful.

>> Seems there is another easy possibility for "help line" Cline etc... ;)
>> Seems if you take a color said "red" for "normal lines" + Brower you can use it as a sort of "help lines" for snap on them!
>> And you can you can use any sort of curves! (so more powerful that clines or normal "help lines" :)
>> And see / hidden easy with Browser
>>Am I wrong?

Hey Frenchy, good idea and I though of this too. But would prefer a real cline if possible :-)


However...

Michael,

Any chance of a dotted line style before the final V2?

@Pilou
Your are totally right :)
The only small problem is that when locked, everything is the same grey! And sometimes I have so much guides that I need to makes 2 or 3 groups of guides. And sometimes I even duplicate the whole model in the x axis from a straight line and details parts only on the duplicated model (im doing a sort of procedural modelling, I can then get back to the original state without using the history, kinda like a non-linear history of my model)
The watch im doing right now (well its paused the client need to send some more data) is a mess if I turn everything on.
The answer would be differents colors for locked lines (another color box, by default light grey)

@-ash-
You are right too, Pilou tech is good but its not for all the cases. My workflow currently is orange color style for construction lines, I also have multi-styles (still the same orange) because the model is too complex to only have 1 style for all the construction lines.

@Michael

> For an example, see here:
> http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1521.1

Well I think the current MoI UI is better than -ash- example, at least for beginners. For advanced users -ash- example is better than the current UI.

The perfect UI would have a slider from dark to light just like After Effects, for people that like Dark on white background or White on dark background.
The Blender exemple is good in the overall feeling of the UI but bad in details I agree with you the black on dark grey is not very good.

> Thanks very much for the feedback!

Thanks you for your feedback too :)

Seems the appearance of the forum don't stop the discussions :)

About colors of UI: seems it's not also a problem ;)
When you begin to modelize the first time with Moi you are hooked by the prog and don't think any more about the UI colors :)

First is efficacy, aesthetic is some secondary minor (Moi is yet aesthetic) :)
The actual blue seems very clear and sufficient :)
I am not sure now to want to change it :D

And there are not "Blue Prints" in world of drawings? ;)

About color lines by Browser for false "help line color " "Group" is not yet active, so when it's will be effective seems you can have more power of selection ;)

@Pilou
> First is efficacy, aesthetic is some secondary minor (Moi is yet aesthetic) :)

I agree but ive already get far enough in efficacy working with MoI :D
And im 300% hooked so im just speaking about details.

> About color lines by Browser for false "help line color " "Group" is not yet active, so when it's will be effective seems you can have more power of selection > ;)

Well I say "group" but I mean "styles", my bad. But if groups have colors too that would be okay!

> Seems the appearance of the forum don't stop the discussions :)

I use IRC a lot, that's even worse than this forum. No UI can stop me speaking hehehe :D

Maybe I've skipped over a similar request - why not just at ONE extra menu item added to the construction line popup menu thingie Persist - this would take the current line you've dragged out, positioned, rotated etc., and make it persistent.

No moving over to the side to click a button, it uses the same UI available to the existing CLine AND by being able to simply persist them lets you create them on the fly and keep them around when needed - or not...


At that point the only issue I see is removing them individually OR all in a single swath...

That can either be 2 additional CLine popup menu items "Remove and "Remove All" - or perhaps a left click / right click kinda thing on a "Remove" menu.


I tend to like the 1st but if Michael feels that's too many items for that little menu then the left/right click suggestion would only add 2 additional menus (Persist and Remove).



As far as a cline command that's similar to existing illustration programs, I need more than the traditional horizontal / vertical rulers - I need diagonals for my perspective work - very important for me to be able to lay down my cline an ANY ANGLE and lock them for reference.

I was going to purchase Autodesk SketchBook Pro because I love how they have their ruler setup but I found that ArtRage could do similar with its flexible stencils so that's what I've been using.


I could see using MoI for all my 2D sketching and concept drawing with just a few more tool additions in the future - colored lines are already there, - having persistent CLines would prolly be all I need actually - hmmm...

-Will

PS - Thinking of a book I was reading recently on drawing, the author's drawings shows he uses a lot of construction lines - think of a drawing of a car and seeing short lines all over the place - say one for each axle of the visible wheels etc.

It would be nice if the persisted clines could be shortened or trimmed and not extend all the way across the viewport - this would help reduce clutter.

Being able to >group< clines and show/hide individual cline groups would also be helpful.

Just an additional thought - I'd rather HAVE the persistent clines then to not have them due to trimming and grouping adding complexity to their implementation!

Hi Pilou,

> And you can you can use any sort of curves! (so more powerful that
> clines or normal "help lines" :)
> And see / hidden easy with Browser
> Am I wrong?

The new "Lock" feature added in the last beta can help out a lot with using regular curves in this way as a snapping framework that does not interfere with selection tasks.

But that is not necessarily "more powerful" than clines in all cases, because clines have the property of an infinite extension which can be helpful for certain things.

It can definitely be useful though, and that's basically why the Lock function was added.

- Michael