Hi Anis,

Do you know that you can have more than one MoI open at the same time? Plus you can cut and paste between them?

Personally I like this better than an MDI as I can have different display settings, for different files, at the same time and they all show up in the task bar (which not all apps do for separate files).

Hi Tony,

> Do you know that you can have more than one MoI open at the same time? Plus you can cut and paste between them?
Yes I know that, but will it consume more memory... ?
When I check in the task manager here it is :

Hi Anis,

> Yes I know that, but will it consume more memory... ?
> When I check in the task manager here it is :

Wow, I'm surprised that you are worried so much about that - you do realize that is only a small amount of memory that you are showing being used there, right?

That's 26MB.

If you have a machine with 3GB of memory, that means you have 3072MB available.

So in other words, that means each instance of MoI there is using less than 1% of your available memory.

Why is that a problem?

Also note that if you minimize any of those MoI instances, then Windows will flush any memory not being actively used to the swap file, and you will see the amount of memory for a new instance shrink down to be even smaller, more like 4MB.

If you minimize one of those MoI instances while your task manager is still open you should be able to see this happen.

I've actually done quite a bit of work to result in this small amount of memory use.... I'm not sure why you have posted it as a problem, what you are showing there is quite efficient!

- Michael

Hi Michael....

>Also note that if you minimize any of those MoI instances,
>then Windows will flush any memory not being actively used to the swap file,
>and you will see the amount of memory for a new instance shrink down to be even smaller, more like 4MB.

Oh, I dont know about this before....

>I'm not sure why you have posted it as a problem
I just dont like so many MoI opens in the windows bar.

Anyway this is not a critical problem, I still can work with MoI.

Thanks Michael !!!

Hi Anis,

> I just dont like so many MoI opens in the windows bar.

But you previously used MS Word as an example - don't you see the exact same thing with Word as well with an entry in the task bar for each open Word document?

Ever since Word 2000, MS has been moving away from the "Multiple Document Interface" method which is when there is only one main frame window open with child document windows contained inside of it.

Instead since the Office 2000 release Word has been switched to "Single Document Interface" (by default anyway), where doing something like File/Open in Word opens up a new independent window, with its own entry in the system task bar. They also show up additionally in the "Window" menu inside of Word itself like you were mentioning, but that is kind of a remnant of the old MDI system.

In general there has been a shift over the years away from MDI and towards SDI, for document editing type programs. That's due to a lot of people getting confused with how MDI works, where there are things like independent minimize/close buttons for sub-documents, a lot of people had gotten confused between those sub-controls and the main window controls. That's one of the main reason for that general shift away from the "contained document window" type environment.

There is a big exception that web browsers have moved differently than this, toward using a tabbed type MDI system. The tab-type system does avoid some of the problems with "traditional MDI" by not having a full set of sub-window controls (like usually not a minimize/restore function for each sub-window in the tabbed system rather than in the full MDI system).

But MoI more generally resembles a document editor in function than a web browser, so it is a better goal for MoI to try and work more similar to an editor program rather than a web browser.

MoI behaves as it does with a Single Document Interface type system to actually work more similar in function to newer versions of Word. That's why it is kind of confusing to me that you used Word as an example - MoI is already functioning in a similar way.

- Michael

Hi Anis, just to get back to answer your original question:

> Have you a plan to create multiple window open for MoI ?

No - I do not have any plan currently to change this part.


> I mean its like in MSWord you go to Pull Down Menu Window

In recent versions of Word, that Window pull-down menu is just a repeat of the same information provided by the operating system in the taskbar shell UI.

It's just repeated there additionally in Word because of the legacy "Multiple Document Interface" system that Word used to be configured to use a long time ago (prior to Office 2000).

For MoI there would not be anything to be gained by repeating that same list of open windows that the operating system is already set up to show you.


In the new Windows 7 version coming up, I believe that Microsoft has changed the way that the list of open windows is displayed in the task bar, so that there is only one program icon and it will pop up a menu of open windows when you move over it. It sounds like you would prefer that system over how the operating system currently functions so you may want to switch to Windows 7 to get that functionality when it is released. But in general that "manage list of open windows" stuff is something that I plan to leave to the operating system to handle rather than trying to repeat it.


> or maybe like tab inside browser.

This is also not planned, because MoI actually already has a system of managing child windows with tabs, which are the various different viewports (3D/Top/Front/Right/Split). That is the tab control down in the bottom command bar:



That would probably be pretty strange to add yet another tab system that controlled the window contents in a different way.

Also in general it is a goal for MoI to be set up more like a document editing program (which have transitioned to "Single Document Interface" as more of a standard, for example in Microsoft Office), rather than a web browser application.

- Michael

As a variant on the same theme, what about having the same model open in multiple windows? Possibly via having multiple instances of the MoI UI communicating with the same backend model (in the MVC sense). I assume that this would be a whole lot of work, unless you've specifically designed for it, but it'd be wonderful, from my perspective, especially if it was possible to run the different windows with different UIs -- multiple monitor support, but in a nice, general, flexible way, and the ability to (even on a single monitor) do things like have two independent 3D views. A low priority feature to be certain, but it'd be wonderful to have.

Hi Ella,

> As a variant on the same theme, what about having the same
> model open in multiple windows?

Yes, I do expect to have this one eventually.

The concept for it is accommodated in the current architecture - basically there is the idea built in that there can be more than one "viewpanel", which is the area of the main window that displays the viewports.

At some point I do expect to be able to open up an additional window that has another viewpanel on it, which would have its own control in that window for switching that window's viewpanel between Split/Top/Front/Right/3D modes, which would be independent of the main window's view panel.

The main reason that has not been finished yet is that this new window will need a somewhat different UI design than the main window currently has - it probably won't need a side pane and full length command bar at the bottom, so probably its UI elements will need to be slightly different, with some "inset" type panels for controls rather than ones that are docked along the entire length of the frame window.

I haven't had time yet to work on the UI design for those.

- Michael

Hi Michael....

>>But you previously used MS Word as an example ?
Sorry, I forgot that even MS Word have Pull DOwn Menu Window, it still open independently in the Windows Taskbar.
So what I mean is Menu Window like my previous software ( SWX ). Even open many files, it will keep "one" aplication in the Window taskbar.

Thanks Sir !!!

Hi Anis,

> So what I mean is Menu Window like my previous software
> ( SWX ). Even open many files, it will keep "one" aplication
> in the Window taskbar.

Sorry - no, I'm not currently planning on doing that. MoI is designed to function like the more recent versions of Word where each document is opened in its own separate window.

This is not a particularly easy thing to me to change back and forth between, so it is not likely that I will be able to make any option to control this anytime soon.

Whether there are separate items listed in the taskbar or only one item is listed there, that's really something that is up to Microsoft to control - they are the ones who have designed how the taskbar behaves.

But I believe in Windows 7 they have granted your wish already, and only have a single item in the taskbar for every open application, with a menu that pops up when you move over that item. That should apply to every application running in Windows 7, including MoI.

I think that it is also possible to get a similar kind of behavior in earlier versions of Windows by adjusting a registry setting to make application entries in the taskbar combine into one item always. If you want to set up your taskbar to work like that, check out these pages:

http://www.mydigitallife.info/2009/01/25/change-the-size-to-group-similar-windows-together-in-windows-taskbar-with-trick-to-force-combine-to-one-button-only/

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/281628

- Michael

Hi Michael....

Thanks for the links.
Looks like it will do the trick.

-Anis

Oh, cool; that's a much better position than I thought you might be in. Will it be possible to have different objects shown and hidden in each viewpanel, or will that be synchronized between viewpanels? Also, will it be possible to have different snap values between viewpanels?

UI-wise, it seems like it wouldn't be too horrible to leave the full-width bar on the bottom; you'd lose the File-Delete buttons, plus Options and Help, and then the file name display and the three line box status box up top would move down into the bar. If you do have separate show/hide state per viewpanel, then you probably would need more of a flyout, as you'd have to fit a separate copy of the scene browser in as well.

/Ella

Hi Ella,

> Will it be possible to have different objects shown and
> hidden in each viewpanel, or will that be synchronized
> between viewpanels?

The hidden state is currently a flag on an object, there is no separate per-viewport flag on every object, so the additional view panel would reflect the same object hidden status as the main window's view panel.


> Also, will it be possible to have different snap values between viewpanels?

No, similarly the snap value is a single global value set in the object model: moi.grid.snapSize

There is no per-viewport or per-viewpanel snap size set up. Once you set the snap size it will be the same in all views.

Otherwise making a bunch of things like this be individually set per viewport or viewpanel would require quite a lot more elaborate UI for manipulating those settings. Right now to set the snap size there is just a simple field for it under Options / Grid - it is really easy to understand how that works, you just set it and that is the setting that you get in every viewport.

Having settings that were different per viewport or viewpanel would require a different mechanism, maybe multiple entry points for the settings, or additional drop-downs that are interconnected with the input fields. There is a lot of potential for confusion when adding such elaborate mechanisms for dealing with settings. For example someone will go in and change a setting, and then wonder why it has not been applied to some other view that they then switched to temporarily. I've tried pretty hard to avoid these kinds of confusing situations.

The way you would do things like you are describing would instead be to run 2 separate instances of MoI, that would allow you to have individual settings for these things per running instance.

The additional viewpanel mechanism that I want to add in the future will not be like that, it is intended to share the same session settings as the current main window viewpanel does, basically it will be intended to work in a very similar way as the main window's current viewpanel, it will be more intended to let you do things like have a maximized "Top" view on a second monitor while working in a maximized 3D view on the other monitor, stuff like that - but each of those views would behave in a way similar to how they currently do.

- Michael

Ok, that makes sense -- I could see benefits from being able to have different snaps and visibilities, but you're right, it would add a ton of UI complexity. Without that, it seems like you should be left with a fairly simple UI in the secondary window -- there's just not that much to display.

/Ella

Hi Ella,

> Without that, it seems like you should be left with a
> fairly simple UI in the secondary window -- there's
> just not that much to display.

Yup, that's exactly it...

In fact I think that there will be so little to be shown that it doesn't really need an entire edge of the window to be holding the UI (like how the bottom command bar or side pane work in the main window currently), and it would actually be kind of weird to have that since it would be mostly empty.

Instead I think that UI would be something that was actually a small island piece that was actually contained within the view panel itself, similar to the way the view controls work currently (the Area / Zoom / Pan / Rotate / Reset toolbar at the bottom of a viewport).

- Michael