Hi, Michael

Very very interesting.

when trying new feature ?

Thanks

The way my mind works it would be ok to grab a bit more attention here as it seems like 2 seperate workflows to me. In my MoI...I start modeling and need access to basic organizational methods, a simpler styles and groups, but then when I pause for a bit, I want the full power to open up...It could even take over some of the modeling area for the moment. So possible a 2 step entry into the browser???


ie; Simple quick out of the way access to basic functions....ooops, I need to stop and focus on setting up the scene and plan a bit more....Ok, Back to MoIdelling!

2 cents.

PS: Dont forget "Position" popup as you have done with "Size" popup. That would be way cool!

Hello Michael,

Trying to translate this in my world, so basically, style is some kind of material editor at his simplest form for the moment (color assignation).
While groups are groups :) So far it's simple, excepet that I'm not used so hide geometry throught the material editor ... So I don't completely get why separate this 2 things.

- Is it possible to hide/unhide group ? Or do I have to assign a style ?

- As MoI slow down a little bit with the edges drawing, I was thinking that maybe we could create a 'no edges' style for exemple, but then, what is I want
hide edges from a group ? I do have to change the syle of the entire group and losing all the color assignation allready made ? Or is it possibel to assign a style to the container name, and keep the child style safe ?

- Will the style be editable/showed in the group tree too ?

- Is it possible to assign a style to a surface that is joined ? (I mean coloring one face of a cube without having to split it)

- Wil the colors (syles ?) be preserved and export as material in the .obj export ?

- Can we ... group styles ? (I mean easily select every objects sharing the same style and group them) ... starting to be a little confused myself so I stop for now :o)

(I probably need to get my hand on it so have clever questions ^^)

Hi Michael ...

Yes, it is exciting to see this progress ... so far it looks good to me.

I have the same questions posted by okapi ... identical, in fact.

thanks,
eric

Looks great, can't wait to try this...
Keep up the good work!

Maybe tiny lightbulbs icons to indicate visibility would be in context!

Marc

Hi Michael

Looks interesting so far.
I think I have a few questions very similar to the ones PaQ asked previousely.
Will it be possible to hide/unhide a group.
Will we be able to select objects by groups or by styles or both ? Difficult to figure out how we can mix the best of both worlds...

Can we assign a style (a color) to a part of a polysurface without separating the object ?

Hi Pilou,

> Maybe the white internal background of the panel of colors
> is too "light" against the rest of the UI?

I actually tried making it the same background initially, which ended up looking kind of weird, here is what that looks like:



It doesn't really separate out the "list container area" as a separate enough thing.

It is really most common for such list control type things to have a light colored background, in many things. For example in the standard File open dialog, notice how the "list container" control that lets you pick out of a list of things, has a light colored background:



So that's why I ended up with that light colored background, it actually seems more normal to me and kind of more typical of other "list control" UI in general.

- Michael

Once again, Michael, great to see you seeking feedback when you introduce a new feature. If only other companies were as interactive.


I like the hide/show based on colour as well as having groups. I see this as a quick way of grouping things - possibly on the fly, using grouping for more structured organization of the model. At first glance it looks like you have 2 things that are the same. But I can see the value in having both methods.

For example: I might set up two groups, control panel bottom and control panel top. In these groups I can have sub groups for the lights, switches, buttons etc.. But then I can style things differently too. So all lights can be green regardless of which group they are in. So I could hide all the lights with one click (see next comment).



>>One thing that I'm not quite sure about is whether it would be good to make it very easy to select all the objects belonging
>>to a group or style with a single click somewhere on that line.

Yes, I think this is a great idea!! Please don't put it in a flyout. Once people get to use this I don't think it will be a problem and it will be a super quick way to create a kind of 'selection set' as well as setting visual cues around how the model is organized. Maybe should there be a select by colour command too? I'm maybe muddying the waters here I think :-)



>>Also I think that right-click on the eye will turn off all the other objects and only keep just those ones visible

Another good one - please keep this in. How would you will bring them all back, though?



>>The idea for that is that if you have a high resolution display with a lot of empty space over there, you can place the Scene browser in that empty space
>> rather than as a new panel. I was thinking of making this the initial default mode if you have a screen resolution of 1600x1200 or higher.

This is a nice idea but please, please, please make an option for the browser to work in a separate window (like the options does).

Based on other tools I use, I can see the browser getting very busy in a complicated model (100s of items). The minimal space used in the 'inside' mode will be very quickly filled up, even on a 1600x1200 monitor.

I, personally, would like to be able to keep the browser open at all times and using the 'adjacent mode' would take space away from the modeling view which I would rather not have to do if possible. If the browser is in a separate window it gets the benefits of, resizing , minimizing, moving, as well as being able to be placed on another monitor if you have one, and it can be re-scaled to suit both the user and the model.

There is some good stuff here, but at the moment I am not at all sure about the placement of this stuff in the interface and the possible encroachment on the modeling area.

Hi okapi, I'm mostly focused first on getting the UI nailed down, but I can give you at least the general ideas so far on how I think file transfer is going to be handled.


> - will the group be recognized as separate layers by Rhino?

Right now the way that I'm thinking of doing it is that "Styles" in MoI will map to layers in Rhino.

I want groups in MoI to be more flexible than layers - for example in MoI you'll be able to have one object belong to multiple different groups. It is not possible in Rhino to have a single object belong to more than one layer at the same time, so that kind of makes it a bad match up between MoI groups and Rhino layers.

However, styles in MoI are assigned as one style per object, this seems to make them a better thing to match up as layers.

Also you'll use styles in MoI to control the visual appearance of your object, and often in Rhino layers are used to control the visual appearance of your object as well, so again that is a good correlation.

So I think that if you want the organization to come across you'll want to use Styles in MoI to organize your objects and control visibility using the Styles section of the scene browser rather than the Groups section.



> - will the layers from a Rhino file be recognized as separate groups?

I'm thinking that probably layers from a Rhino file could open as Styles inside of MoI, to match up with the export mechanism as described above.


> -will it be possible to export OBJ models that preserve the grouping mode.

OBJ files have a few different methods that can be used to tag different parts of the model data.

I'm thinking that groups in MoI can translate into groups in the OBJ file (which at least in the file spec allows for one object to belong to multiple groups) and I think that Styles will go out as material assignments.

- Michael

Hey Michael, everybody,

Just thought I would throw some ideas out there.

As a long time user of Adobe Illustrator I`ve taken some features from there.
It has a lot of good organize functions that could be implemented in Moi although it is a 2D program.

I know a lot of the functions would make it more complex, but I think it gives great control over your scene.
I`ve tried to think flow and intuition although it`s more complicated than what`s been shown so far.
Personally I like having everything in one place, two "browser" makes me feel like having less control, but I may be wrong.

Michael, like always, I really dig the way you operate and let us users participate in the development.
You`ve figured out what other software developers should have figured out a long time ago.
When it comes to brainstorming/idea collecting, it is not the initial quality of the ideas that matters, but volume.
Then you have a huge idea base that you can tap into and play around with and combine etc.
In this case you can have ideas that are half good and combine them to make a great one :)
(used to do that a lot when I was doing projects as a graphic designer, long time ago)

Mind, I`ve made this in Excel with no intention of illustrating the design, just the functions that could be implemented.
Anyway, here it is (cluttered, but hopefully readable).

PS
For making a new group or style: they can be individual "objects in the browser without being connected to physical object.
Then you can drag/drop these on to a object in the organizer, and it will organize itself under the physical object definition.

Hi Danny, thanks for the feedback - yes it's fine to just brainstorm and throw out some ideas!

> I like the logic so far, styles and groups. I know you don't like
> the word 'Layers' but does 'Styles' equate to layers in the
> simplest form ?

Yeah, I think it has pretty much turned out that way, which I think will be good because then styles can be used to transfer into "Layers" when doing import/export to some different formats.

You'll be able to use Styles if you want to organize your object primarily based on visual appearance, like Red objects = one category, Blue objects = a different category, etc...


If you want to organize your objects in a separate way than its visual appearance, like make hierarchies and things like that, then you can use Groups to do that. That will then get into some kinds of arrangements that are not possible to do with regular traditional layers. (and will also therefore not map so easily to them during import/export though).


I'm trying to avoid using that term "Layers" because if I name something Layers it will make it look like that is the main thing that you should use for organizing objects.


> With groups, have you thought how you are going to
> define them, titles,numbers......?

Currently the idea is that groups will have a name assigned to them, like when you do a "New group" probably a dialog will pop up at that time to let you enter a name for it.


> Maybe a third option "Side" which would throw it to the
> opposite side of the the screen to the command palettes, I
> feel organisational work flow should be separate from the
> modelling work flow, my feeling anyway

I've generally tried pretty hard to keep the top and left sides clear of UI, it kind of helps to make for a kind of "open" feeling to the viewport with the spotlight kind of put more on your objects rather than on the program UI.

UI that surrounds your objects on all sides gives me a kind of "boxed in" feel that I'd like to avoid.

Anyway, that's kind of the philosophy for not doing that...

If it seems to come up a bunch more then I could certainly add in an option for it! It will be pretty easy to actually make your local copy behave like that by editing a UI file though (I'll give instructions after it is out there) so you'll be able to try it out like that.


> Here's one idea, maybe start using the second click option to
> open another palette, same action as you have for the Viewport
> configuration tabs.

This kind of works best when that second click would otherwise do nothing.

Like for example with the viewport tabs, once you have clicked on "Top" and made it active, it's not like you would expect for a second click there to do the opposite (since that one is a button that is part of a set). So for a while there that second click was not doing anything until I made it do the reversing function instead.

But with the Tree buttons that have a + / - on them, if one click opens that tree item, then a second click would be normally expected to already do the opposite, so it doesn't quite have a "do nothing" state that I can leverage for that case...

- Michael

Cool progress Michael...just some thoughts (no idea if that is possible)...also do not pay atencion to the material editors layout is a very quick draft...

Hi Grendel,

> Looking good so far Michael, when you say "selecting the
> whole group somewhere on that line" could that not be
> when you select the group header and it is collapsed
> or expanded?

You mean like clicking on the text of the name rather than on the +/- button?

Yes - I definitely want to assign something to that action but I also have another big thing that I already need to assign to an action which is to pop out a menu with more stuff on it.

I'm thinking of putting a "Select objects" button on that pop-out menu instead.

That would make for just a few actions directly on the "top level" UI of an item - clicking on the eye would handle hiding/showing it, clicking on a +/- of a parent group would open up its child items, and otherwise clicking on anywhere else on it (like on the text of its name or its swatch) would open up the menu with a bunch more actions on that menu.

I would like to have a select function on the "top level" item as well, but I have not yet figured out a good way to make the pop-out menu work easily at the same time as a select function.

Maybe I could make it so that if you go to the far right side of the item's line you could click in a zone there to select its objects rather than open up the popup menu.

- Michael

Hi Marco,

> when trying new feature ?

I'm not quite sure yet, hopefully not too much longer but there is still some work to do to finish it up so that it is functional.

- Michael

Hi Yannada, looks interesting!


A couple of issues - on a lower res screen the bottom toolbar is nearly full so there are situations where there is not enough room to put the "Browser" on the bottom command bar rather than at the bottom of the side pane, that's the main reason why I have located it to the right of the help button at the bottom of the side pane instead.

Also that is an interesting idea to have a small menu to switch between Adjacent and Inside modes, but do you really expect to be moving back and forth between these different modes often? Right now I am expecting for that to be something that is set once to set up your overall UI configuration and then will not need to be adjusted after that. Settings like this which are only set once I prefer to put inside of the Options dialog and keep them a bit more out of the way.

RE: Objects and styles in one panel - it looks like your version there though would be missing the function of doing a "Hide all red objects" for example.

I want to be able to have the function available for hiding/showing/selecting/etc... all objects of a certain style as well as different groups.

This is the reason why I want to have different sections in the browser for "Groups" and "Styles".

If you don't want to work by selecting styles, it won't really be a problem, just hit the - sign on the Styles part of the browser and it collapses to a single line to stay out of your way.

- Michael

Hi Burr,

> I start modeling and need access to basic organizational methods,
> a simpler styles and groups, but then when I pause for a bit,
> I want the full power to open up...It could even take over some
> of the modeling area for the moment. So possible a 2 step entry
> into the browser???

It's kind of tough to think about this kind of completely separate multi-stage thing, because that then makes for multiple kinds of "triggering" mechanisms required to open up each of these different modes.

Basically I'm really hoping to have one overall mechanism that sort of combines these things together, like with basic functions like "hide/show" easy to access in the most simple way but then a pop-up menu that you can trigger by clicking on an item that has some more advanced functions on it.

That pop-up menu part is actually a lot like you are describing above, since it will take up some additional space when it is open, sort of like the "take over some of the modeling area" that you were talking about above. So maybe the current direction is actually pretty aligned to what you are describing, we'll see when it comes together a bit more!

> PS: Dont forget "Position" popup as you have done with
> "Size" popup. That would be way cool!

Most objects don't really have a "position" - usually objects are made up of a variety of different x,y,z points in it, and a "position" would mean trying to elevate just one of those points as a kind of special one. You can use the Move command for that currently since you pick the point you are interested in as the first pick in that command.

Some previous discussion on this here:
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2127.45

- Michael

Just test :)
And what are really words under colors?
Word of the color or other things?
Are they necessary inside this panel? Because there is a very small place for other languages and for following colors' name after 7! ;)

Hi PaQ,

> So far it's simple, excepet that I'm not used so hide
> geometry throught the material editor ... So I don't
> completely get why separate this 2 things.

Well, basically the material is another kind of organizational method applied to objects, you would probably normally have some way to select all objects of a certain material... This provides for that and more by giving you the same tools to work on all the objects of a certain material by hiding/showing/locking/etc... same as you would for groups.

Basically "all objects that have this material" becomes another kind of group that you can work on if you want.

Maybe instead of it being its own top-level browser item I could put it as a special "Styles" sub-section underneath groups, that maybe would be clearer that you are treating "all objects of this style" as a kind of group operation... But I'm not really sure that would make much overall difference.

I do want to have some other special "built-in" groups like an "All objects" group that will let you apply the same kinds of operations (hide,select,etc...) to all objects using the same UI as for manipulating a group.


> - Is it possible to hide/unhide group ? Or do I have to assign a style ?

Yeah, the entries under Groups will have the same kind of controls as what I currently show there for Styles, with an eye icon, etc... So if you click on the eye icon for a group it will hide that group for instance.


> - As MoI slow down a little bit with the edges drawing, I was
> thinking that maybe we could create a 'no edges' style for
> exemple, but then, what is I want hide edges from a group ?

At least at first I don't think there will be a way to hide things by the visual properties that you set in a style, but that would probably be good to add in the future.

But a style is a property of an object, if you want to hide edges from a group, you would select all the objects of that group and then assign them the style you want, now all those objects have that style. (there may be a shortcut for this as well, maybe by clicking on a group swatch).

But a style does not belong to a group, it belongs to individual objects, basically the group UI (for hide/show and everything really) is a kind of helper to set different properties on a particular batch of objects.


> I do have to change the syle of the entire group and losing all
> the color assignation allready made ? Or is it possibel to assign
> a style to the container name, and keep the child style safe ?

Well for now at least you'll probably want to hide the edge sub-objects of all those items instead of using a style for hiding. That keeps the hidden and style stuff separate.

Also for the next v2 beta I've fixed up sub-objects so that hidden sub-objects stay hidden through editing operations.


> - Will the style be editable/showed in the group tree too ?

I'm not sure yet, but possibly - I'm thinking that a group tree item can have a swatch for the group and if all the objects in the group have the same style that style color will be shown there, and probably clicking on it could assign the style you pick to the objects inside of it.


> - Is it possible to assign a style to a surface that is joined ?
> (I mean coloring one face of a cube without having to split it)

Yes - you can apply different styles to sub-objects, like different ones to faces or edges.


> - Wil the colors (syles ?) be preserved and export as material in the .obj export ?

Yes, that's the idea, that styles will get exported as material definitions in .obj .


> - Can we ... group styles ? (I mean easily select every objects
> sharing the same style and group them) ... starting to be a little
> confused myself so I stop for now :o)

Sure, you can select all objects that belong to the same style (use some action in the scene browser in the Styles section to do this), then go to Groups and hit "New group" and that will make a new group with those selected objects in it.

But if you want to do operations on all objects of a certain style, that's what that Styles section is for, so you don't have to manually form groups for that, they are kind of like "built in" groups.


Hopefully that makes a bit more sense?


Basically the whole thing is just about shortcuts for applying properties to batches of objects at once.

The "batch" can be some set of objects that you have specified (a group), or other things like "all objects with Style:red" (a kind of built in batch you access under the Styles UI in the scene browser).


- Michael

Hi Marc,

> Maybe tiny lightbulbs icons to indicate visibility would be in context!

I thought about that. But there are some problems with that.

The biggest one is that I think it would be easy to confuse with "selected" - a yellow lit up bulb looks kind of similar to the selection color and I think could possibly be misinterpreted when just glancing on it to mean selected/unselected rather than hide/show.

I think the lightbulb comes from AutoCAD's layer browser?

It actually seems to be a lot more common in general for programs to use an Eye icon to show "show/hide", in 2D illustration that has been the case for a long time with layers in photoshop. I had checked through a few 2D illustration / photo apps and I didn't find any that used the lightbulb for that, most use an eye and a couple use a checkbox.

The other problem with a lightbulb is that MoI's program icon is also a lightbulb, possibly leading to some confusion there as well.

Another idea was to maybe show a shaded sphere to mean "show", but I'm actually pretty happy with how the eye has turned out.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

In the previous thread there, ash made a response that would mirror mine here:

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2127.49

(I post this just so your clear on what I was leaning on)

I dont want you to get bogged down with this as I think we already discussed it and I know its something that you have already considered. It's just a workflow that a few others may be used to (My same reference to Corel and Carrara as ash) with the "Hotpoint" addition as a property, but you have pointed out that the Move command does this too.

I suppose I was hoping for an "OUTCRY" of the masses to get what I want and force you to do something that you decided not to do!!! :O Ha!


(On second thought, I'm sure I couldnt push you around!:))

Burr