Hi jonah - when I wrote "underpriced", I was mostly referring not to just any particular user's outlook on it but rather to overall business.

There are quite a few people who would have been willing to pay more than $195 for v1, and each one of those is basically money left on the table from a business perspective.

Additionally it is difficult to get resellers excited about supporting and selling software at this price because they don't get much of a margin on it.

So those factors together pretty much indicate that I should have put a bit higher price for v1, even with the factors you mention like being limited in some areas to more basic functions. Although for example MoI version 1 still has the best meshing function in the industry, including the n-gon meshing capability which cannot be found anywhere else regardless of price, so it is sort of a mixture of advanced and basic together in different areas. It is incorrect to consider it to be just "basic" completely across the board.

Even at the $500 level, it should be pretty easy to justify purchasing MoI as a companion to other software if it saves you time with some of your professional work, and particularly if it offers you unique capabilities that can't be found elsewhere.

It will be a lot more difficult decision for hobbyists certainly. That's one reason why I have thought about still having MoI v1 available at that time as a kind of "lite" version.

- Michael

Hi. It wasn't my intention to imply that MoI is basic across the board. Just that you included the most elemental modeling tools first, in favor of jamming in everything at the first go. And yes, I know that when it comes to buying tools for getting work done, $500 is not a huge investment. Any decent render engine cost at least that much (if not double that), and I have more render engines than i have years involved with 3D. It seems we never have enough tools, or at least not just one to handle everything as we wish it would... :)

jonah

Going by what has been posted in this thread and the rest of the forums past threads, if MoI was a standalone 'mesher' (world class that is) and translator only, $195 would still be a bargain!

Using a so called 'high end' CAD package at work, we only have an iges translator, Oh! you want Step translation ? that's an extra cost. Ahh, you want DWG\DXF translator as well? that's another cost. STL yep! more again.

Stay on this path Michael, IMO it leads to a good place :)

my 2c

Sorry if my "been there, done that" experience does not seem to be grasped.

As with a couple of "?basic" things for "average" user customers on other threads.

It's nothing to do with "one man band" approaches--I really have done that also---is a "philosophy"

Anyway, I try

Brian

Hi Brian, I have already given a low price a try and it did not automatically result in a huge volume of sales.

So I'm sure your experiences were great for the fields and situations that you were in, but they don't seem to apply well to my current situation though.

I am really kind of confused by your comments actually - I mean you gave a list of various free programs and one priced at one dollar and 99 cents. Do you seriously believe that I would be able to make a living pricing my software in that same way?


Anyway, I am sorry that v2 will be too expensive for you! I'm glad that you have had fun using v1 though.

- Michael

That's the reply from Phil from Headus about uvlayout price ... I think he's facing the same problem somehow, and it makes a lot of sence :)

" Doesn't the price put a lot of people off ? "
Probably. If I halve the price and sell three as much, its only 50% more $$$'s but 300% more support work. I'd be answering email all day and not getting any real work done!

Only having to pay the difference between each version is really fair.

Hi PaQ, yup that sounds like the same kind of situation as me.

It is kind of better for me to have a somewhat smaller sized audience to keep support manageable, a kind of "mass market" low cost but high volume type thing just does not fit well with what I like to do. It needs a different kind of company setup to handle that.

Then the other tricky thing is that there is no kind of guarantee that just halving the price of something automatically generates more sales. Halving the price and then selling the same amount for example is not a really great situation for the business! :)

- Michael

Well this is a can of worms ;-)


>>Currently my plan is to increase the price of v2 by US $100 to a total of $295 for a full license, or $100 for a v1 to v2 upgrade license.

So the intended upgrade price is always going to be the difference between the versions?
This works for me today as I had budgeted $100 for upgrading - though in real terms this has now increased due to the financial mess :-(



>>Basically I did end up pricing version 1.0 too low. I mean there were some reasons I did this, I wanted to make it easy for people to get MoI
>> and also having a low price tends to make it easier to justify missing functions.

This worked in my case - I had looked at Rhino and it was way out of my (non-professional) price range. Plus they charged more just because I wasn't in the States. ($1.00 does not equal 1 euro). Then I heard about MoI. At $500.00 I probably would not have bought though. After playing with the demo and at $195.00, no problem. Turned out rather well so far :-)



>>'s not really something I enjoy doing a whole bunch, so that basically leads me more towards
>>focusing on more professional level users who can more easily afford anything in the $500 range if it helps them get their work done.

This might be a problem for me (non-pro) in the future if the upgrade price goes too high.



It seems to me that your initial pricing has given you three customer groups - pro, semi pro/small business and non pro. The question is, if you completely focus on pro will it hurt your future business? Only you can decide, but I think it might. My main problem with all software is what happens if I change OS or hardware and the version I'm using doesn't work. What then? Understandably old versions are not usually supported with updates, it would become a nightmare for any business.

So I was wondering, can you change the lite version every so often to be 2 or 3 versions back rather than just remain at version 1? That way the non/semi-pro can eventually upgrade to a version that is compatible with later OS or hardware but still with a reduced tool set compared to the current version. Though if they want the latest tool set, then will have to pay the upgrade price to get to the latest version.


Having said all that - $500.00 is still half that of Rhino and I will be upgrading to V2.0 and, as long as I can afford it, V3 and beyond :-)

There is propably a robust work around and tha is .DNG. Please take a look it may may prove to be very useful.
Autodesk and Bentley to Advance AEC Software Interoperability http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Corporate/News/Interoperability+Agreement/Autodesk+Bentley+Agreement.htm
OpenDGN http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Products/MicroStation/OpenDGN/

Hi Michael,

>>Currently my plan is to increase the price of v2 by US $100 to a total of $295 for a full license, or $100 for a v1 to v2 upgrade license.

Ah right, sorry, my misinterpretation of your comment.

It was just you had commented on the price before on another thread with a probable price and thought you where going to increase that initial price. But the price is the same, so no problem.


- Steve

>Additionally it is difficult to get resellers excited about supporting and selling software at this price because they don't get much of a margin on it.

Well is a fact that MoI has a very small user base, also I don't think resellers will change that, bare in mind they will still promote Autodesk, Dassault... products, the reason more profit for them.
There are better ways to promote a product, a) publications ( you been doing well up to now but you need to push more towards design blogs etc.). b)The Education Sector (Promote you product to Design Universities that will generate sales few year later).

From personal experience publications generate hype and sales not the resellers...IMO.

Hi Michael,

I meant to comment on this:-

>>One idea that I have had is that in the future I could still offer version 1.0 at its same current price as a kind of "lite" version for someone who was looking for just an essential modeling tool that is easy for them to use. I'm not completely sure about that yet, but that is one idea.<<

In its current state?

I ask because there have been many reports concerning what are seen as bugs in V1, which are fixed or being fixed in V2 and for a new user who may purchase V1 (after V2 is released) to make a bug report, to then be told it is fixed in V2 and a need to upgrade to get a fix could not be taken well.


- Steve

Perhaps you could offer a complete Support & Maintenance package, which includes priority technical support, maintenance releases, access to beta versions throughout the development period.This way you keep both groups happy and you don't have loss in sales. (just a thought)

Michael wrote:
"Currently my plan is to increase the price of v2 by US $100 to a total of $295 for a full license, or $100 for a v1 to v2 upgrade license.

Then probably after about another year's worth of work for v3, I think the same thing will happen for it, that it will go to $395. By that point in time quite a lot of the things that were missing in v1 will be filled in pretty well.

One idea that I have had is that in the future I could still offer version 1.0 at its same current price as a kind of "lite" version for someone who was looking for just an essential modeling tool that is easy for them to use. I'm not completely sure about that yet, but that is one idea."

---

Selling the 1.0 version with old price. I think, that's quite fair. And I'm a freelancer and I understand, that only money helps to pay all this things for living. My experience is, that my family says, it's ok if you are working hard on a project, but if you would do it for free, than please let it be and spend your time with us. ;)

An other tought from me is, if MOI3D grows, than you (Michael) shouldn't stick at the one-man-company road. Your work is outstanding and I would like to see you focus on design and programming. Marketing and forum posts could do employee for you. Yes, I know, employee cost wage, but maybe the v2 price could help in this direction.

It's a great idea to offer flexibility on price levels.

Marc

>At some point (perhaps V4) when your price nears the $500 mark, then it won't be such an easy decision for many people anymore. MoI then becomes a "main" package for many people instead of a "support" package.

I think Jonah has a valuable point here, MoI as it stands now or even at V2 completion is and will be very very good Pipeline Tool but it can not stand alone. To put into perspective:
Rhino $788
SpaceClaim LTX $825
Shark LT $475

Now let focus on the lowest price: Shark LT $475
__________________________________________1:Based on Dassault’s ACIS™ modeling kernel.
__________________________________________2:2D, 3D, surface, and solid modeling tools.
__________________________________________3:SAT, IGES, STEP, STL, OBJ, VRML, and DXF/DWG.
__________________________________________4:Windows and Mac OS X platform.

Conclusion: As Jonas said at $500 mark MoI becomes a "main" package, and to be honest that's I want MoI to be, But it needs to compete with others in features, compatibility etc.Then we have a winner.

ps.Sorry I write in bullet point I have to take my daughter to a pantomime.

>>Now let focus on the lowest price: Shark LT $475<<

Why Shark LT, you can get ViaCad pro for $249.99

The main difference between Pro and Shark LT is the 2d drawing output

""""Rhino $788
SpaceClaim LTX $825
Shark LT $475

Lets see you use any of those with a "Tablet" on a "usb stick!"

Last time I tried to use the developers forum at RMA, I felt accosted by a superior user of the product who expected me to "know" what I was asking, for "what and why" I was asking it, and didnt get the answer to my question.

A couple things here.

I have "MANY" softwares on my computer that cost 500 and above. Couldnt /wouldnt have stopped at just 1. They all fill a purpose

When I originally purchased MoI, 195.00 was alot for me to spend on an "unproven new software". With research on the developer and forum comments, I made the purchase. Seems like I stole something now! As the word gets out and communities begin to know and understand whats going on here, that initial hesitation could not be there for me. There is NO other under 200 software that is of the same caliber. V2 has "already" outgrown that level of play.

If I could Get tools to model surfaces that I would need rhino for, for half the price????

> Conclusion: As Jonas said at $500 mark MoI becomes a "main" package,

I'm not so sure about this conclusion.

Like Jonas mentioned, frequently a utility plug-in that you might purchase to extend another program (like a Render engine for Rhino, a CAM plugin for something else, etc..) easily run $500 or more. A plugin is certainly not a "main" package, and if you view MoI in this light it makes it pretty easy to consider it in the same category, if it does useful things to you and particularly if it has functions that you can't get anywhere else!


> Now let focus on the lowest price: Shark LT $475

Let us instead focus on this: Shark FX MSRP: $1795.00

I certainly agree that at that actually full version price nearing $2000, that makes it a "main" package. Although actually, does that version even do CAM built in?


Anyway it is sort of the essence of MoI to focus on creating geometry very quickly and fluidly. This is going to remain a primary goal for MoI throughout its life, and I will have a tendency to shy away from just adding in tons of things that actually ruin this essential function by increasing the complexity by too much.

So I do not really expect for MoI to become a full replacement for a parametric solid modeling program, really ever. Those programs have different goals that do not totally align with MoI's goals.

Of course I will be adding things in to MoI over time as well, and as this continues it will become a more complete program for various tasks, certainly.

- Michael

Hi Tony,

> So the intended upgrade price is always going to be
> the difference between the versions?

Yup, that's the idea, at least for the next several versions. At a certain point (probably at $495) the price of a full new license for the new version will not go up any more after that. I guess at that time I will have to figure out what to do about an upgrade price, since there won't be this kind of natural "difference between versions" price.


> At $500.00 I probably would not have bought though. After
> playing with the demo and at $195.00, no problem.

I guess if I had a $195 "lite" version in addition to a $500 full version this would probably still have worked for you.


> This might be a problem for me (non-pro) in the future if the
> upgrade price goes too high.

I pretty much expect for it to be $100 for an upgrade (targeting roughly once a year releases) for some time to come anyway.


> So I was wondering, can you change the lite version every
> so often to be 2 or 3 versions back rather than just remain
> at version 1?

Yeah I think that is a good idea. Maybe it would be better for me to focus more on v2 being the actual lite version once v4 is out, and probably not really having one until we get to v4.

- Michael