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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.1 
I tried to get this going (attached) but, and you may find this odd with what I do, it really, really is too mind attentive for me to cope with.

It's just a normal thing that I would expect all new users of MoI to expect? (Well--thats what I think)
(The wiiki has the info, but, for me ,so very difficult to logically access?)

Love someone to progress with the idea----- please!

Brian

EDITED: 29 Jan 2009 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
2364.2 In reply to 2364.1 
You have some one here ;)
http://moi3d.com/wiki/Shortcut_Keys
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.3 In reply to 2364.2 
No mate..

thats part of the "difficullt" to understand that I actually was using to produce my "Refined" version.

Brian
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2364.4 In reply to 2364.1 
Hi Brian - the wiki has all the information all in one place... If you want to re-arrange it in a different way for printing that makes more sense to you then certainly feel free to do that!

If you like your arrangement better than the other one, then it looks like you are all set up now.


> It's just a normal thing that I would expect all new users
> of MoI to expect? (Well--thats what I think)

I don't seem to get many e-mail questions about it, so it certainly does not seem to be a big issue with new users.

It is pretty tough to just guess at what may be problems for new users, it is really very easy to be wrong.

The best way to determine stuff like that is to do a kind of formalized usability testing, but that is pretty time consuming.

Other than that, the next best thing is to observe any patterns of seeing what questions are asked many times.

This just does not come up very frequently, except from posts from you! :) So as far as I can tell given direct evidence, it is not a big issue for new users.

- Michael
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.5 In reply to 2364.4 
Michael

Out of curiosity.

How many of the people who have downloaded the trial version, or have purchased the app, actually correspond?

There are a couple of blind spots that quite surprise me.

Some "loose ends" that seem not at the best professional level--from my point of view?

(I have been experimenting with the "Brian" UI idea on small screens with friends---seems to look fine?)

Sorry if I keep at it. I have been trying to sell MoI to friends --several wont buy any app that requires connection to a website to effectively use. (What actually is included in the main MoI purchase download?)

One in particular uses 3D continually at work, in an National organisation, no web connections accesable---he would have to problem solve, after work hours, at home!.

Perhaps I live in/come from a different world/background?

Just trying to communicate---sorry if it seems an odd way.

We are not all Burrs, and Pilous etc!

Brian
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2364.6 In reply to 2364.5 
Hi Brian, well I'm off on vacation right now so it is not so easy for me to check the numbers of downloads currently.

But certainly there is plenty of stuff at "not at the best professional level", which is pretty normal since I have not had an infinite amount of time available to spend on MoI yet.

Like I've mentioned before, it takes quite a bit of time to do a lot of these things, it is not like I can push a button and make things happen automatically.

Some things take time before they can get reworked and evolve to another level of refinement.

This is a very normal thing! Sometimes you seem to expect that MoI version 1 should have every single detail (for example the shortcut key editor) developed to the absolute highest level already.... It would certainly be cool if that was possible, but unfortunately I do not have the magic powers that would be required to do that.

So for some things it is just a matter of waiting until I have time available to work on improving that area.


I'd be curious if you had some examples of software that was at the "best professional level" of development for comparison.


- Michael
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.7 In reply to 2364.6 
Michael

Just making my view.

If you had downloaded all the apps I have I think my points would stand out like a sore toe!

Relax, come back fom your holidays with an open mind---

If it was not that I try to promote MoI (and 3D Coat)to the likes of Daz Studio, Carrara, (Bryce--shivver!), and other users on various forums--as does Pilou!----I would not worry.

I love MoI--but it lacks some user friendliness aspects to conform with "Normal" , regular, user expectations I suggest--for those of my level!.

Anyway---if I am an isolated, iglo living Pita--forgive me.

Brian
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.8 In reply to 2364.7 
Theoretically, by all the statistics, OVERWHELMINGLY,
Blender is the most used 3D app in the world!

?

Brian
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 From:  Michael Gibson
2364.9 In reply to 2364.7 
Hi Brian, I guess the point is that I have dedicated more energy towards making the modeling tools in MoI work more smoothly.

I guess that is probably why you like to use MoI for modeling instead of those other programs that you have mentioned, is that correct?

Stuff like the shortcut key editor is just not as important for the modeling process, it tends to be something that someone goes in and sets up once and then they don't really go back there very frequently after that to the editor/setup mechanism specifically.

Since I only have limited time available to me and I do not have magical powers to do superhuman amounts of work, I have to pick the areas that I put time into pretty carefully.

That means that some of the less frequently used areas that do not directly impact modeling are just not as refined currently.

That's normal, and that's actually a great feature of MoI, since the payoff is that you do instead get really great modeling tools. I mean that is the reason why you use MoI, right?

If I were to have instead focused initially on refining these less frequently used areas like you are talking about here, that would mean that I would have had to divert time away from more frequently used modeling tools, and the result would have been a better shortcut editor, but less functions and ease of use in modeling. That is not a good trade-off for MoI - instead the focus for MoI is in the modeling functions.

If you care more about these other things than modeling functions, then MoI is probably just not the right tool for you - it is not focused on the areas that are important to you in particular.

This focus for MoI is an intentional and strategic thing which has brought very significant benefits, it is not likely to be changing anytime soon, no matter how many times you repeat the same requests over and over again. I do expect for these areas to eventually get more refined but it will take a fair amount of time before that will happen.

If this means that MoI is not right for you, then I totally understand - this focused aspect of MoI is not necessarily the right kind of focus for every single person, and it sounds like you would really be happier with some other software that has a different set of priorities than MoI's.

It's kind of a matter of using "the right tool for the job". It sounds like MoI just is not the right tool for you, if there are other tools out there that have priorities more like what you expect, then stop using MoI and use those other tools instead and that should work better for you. Don't get me wrong - I am not offended by this in any way, I certainly know that the choices that I have made with MoI are not going to be perfect for every single individual, and that's ok and actually fully expected.

- Michael
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 From:  PaQ
2364.10 In reply to 2364.9 
My kid, 10 years old, who's only used to some game u.i. (rts games) never ask me how to navigate in MoI.

He can after 5 minutres moving objects, duplicate, and navigate without problem.
As every tools are visible in MoI, in fact no shortcut are needed at a learning stage, you only configure shortcuts when you
really want to speed up some modeling tasks.

I don't really understand the problem.

(as a comparaison, he was never able to do anything with Blender, ... I mean ... really nothing. I myself had to
read few docs/tutorial to more less understand the navigation :))
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
2364.11 In reply to 2364.10 
I believe that Brian have some difficulties to memorize shortcuts for "Scripts" as they are numerous and not easy to see what make something only to read beginning of the line !

But seems that is quiet easy to add just /* something*/ after the words "script:" like this
code:
script:var gd = moi.geometryDatabase; gd.deselectAll(); var breps = gd.getObjects().getBreps(); for ( var i = 0; i < breps.length; ++i ) breps.item(i).getNakedEdges().setProperty( 'selected', true );


become
code:
script:/* Show Open Faces*/var gd = moi.geometryDatabase; gd.deselectAll(); var breps = gd.getObjects().getBreps(); for ( var i = 0; i < breps.length; ++i ) breps.item(i).getNakedEdges().setProperty( 'selected', true );


And if you want more simple to read seems not so too difficult to make a little js prog ;)
Copy all the line beginning by "Script:" in the NoteBook
and save as "Something.js" and put it in a folder "scripts" inside the Moi prog!
(create the folder "scripts" if this one is not existing) ;)

Result will be on the Command column of the Option Shortcurts
Something.js
with the example above that will be for example
Show Open Faces.js
Not so a big deal :)

Here with a French result example ;)

EDITED: 29 Jan 2009 by PILOU

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 From:  PaQ
2364.12 In reply to 2364.11 
Hooo sorry then, I see the problem a little bit better ;)

For sure scripts are a problem, it's somehow, "hidden functions that you have to map yourself to run them".
I can imagine it's quite hard to learn them all, or assign a shortcut for every extra scipts around.

I think it would be helpfull to have
- a script launcher function (F6 in modo), where a popup window open and let you select and execute a script from your HD ... handy for some scipts that are used once a month.
- some place should be found in the interface (that's not easy ^^) where all the extra command installed are listed, with their own button, so you don't have to remember any shortcut.

Should be quite low in priority list I suppose o)
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 From:  Anis
2364.13 In reply to 2364.12 
Hi Brian & Pilou,

I like to put all the script inside "Script" folder.
Burr already create the video on how to set up this. I just not remember in which thread. Burr will come here and tell us :)
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 From:  BurrMan
2364.14 In reply to 2364.13 
Hi Anis,

http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=2134.24

Is the vid your talking about. Just allows to save all the scripts michael makes with meaningful names and use them that way.
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 From:  BurrMan
2364.15 In reply to 2364.12 
>>>>I think it would be helpfull to have
- a script launcher function (F6 in modo), where a popup window open and let you select and execute a script from your HD ... handy for some scipts that are used once a month.
- some place should be found in the interface (that's not easy ^^) where all the extra command installed are listed, with their own button, so you don't have to remember any shortcut.>>>>

Hi Paq,
I do this with the plug-in Gallery.



And then insert an Icon to use to launch it from the ui.



Of course, we are "Beta Testing" and this requires the ability to keep up with this with each new release of a software in testing! Once the software is released and set, I'm sure someone can make this a reality for those that wish it. As for the moment, we all like a better mesher and great fillets as you stated! :)

EDITED: 19 Jun 2012 by BURRMAN

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 From:  Michael Gibson
2364.16 In reply to 2364.11 
Hi Pilou,

> I believe that Brian have some difficulties to memorize shortcuts
> for "Scripts" as they are numerous and not easy to see what
> make something only to read beginning of the line !

Yes, I believe I've heard him mention this before.

Also another way to solve this particular problem is to just write a few notes for yourself in a text editor like notepad and then print it out to make your own reference guide...

That would solve the problem and would probably be less typing than all the posts on this on the forum so far! :)

But I don't see how this applies to "new users" really? Typically those custom scripts are for more advanced users who are trying to reduce the number of steps for some particular task that they are doing frequently on a heavy model. It's not typically something that applies to new or beginning users.

- Michael
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
2364.17 In reply to 2364.16 
Just a basic reply.

Are some of you suggesting that you can MEMORISE all the shortcuts for the various apps you use?

I think I better give this whole computer exercise away!

Is it Sunday today?

Brian
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
2364.18 In reply to 2364.17 
< you can MEMORISE
No I use just some little "Post it" ;)
---
Pilou
Is beautiful that please without concept!
My Gallery
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 From:  kevjon
2364.19 
I just scour the web and help files of the application I use to find out what the keyboard shortcuts are and then just type them into a word document and print them off for reference. If you end up using that application a lot pretty soon you'll remember them all off by heart anyway.
~Kevin~
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
2364.20 In reply to 2364.17 
Hi Brian,

>>Are some of you suggesting that you can MEMORISE all the shortcuts for the various apps you use?

Yeah, all 3 of them, but only for the main functions I use most.
As for plugins I only load what I need, and there I assign a key related to the function eg. Gear = G, Distance Measure =Ctrl+D, Naked Edges = N etc. easy to remember :)

---------
~Danny~
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