Hi okapi, I was thinking of adding that as a right-click on Hide, do you think that would work?

- Michael

Hi michael,
it would work as well,
however I like the fact that moi does not rely on right clicks, ctrl+click, shift+click or alt+click for various
commands with a single icon, as some other programs do.
I like the fact that it is very transparent right now, there are no hidden commands (or not many).

Hi okapi, re: Right click

Yeah, it has been a pretty big goal to try to not have to use right-click or key combos to do basic functions.

But adding new buttons causes a different problem of "UI clutter". If the UI becomes too overly packed with stuff it gets harder to navigate through it all to find what you want.

I have a somewhat greater degree of concern about reducing that problem currently, so I will probably be adding in a few more right-click things here and there. I'll try to have them more for "advanced" type functionality though.

- Michael

Hi Michael,
I am certain you will find an elegant solution for this.
I really like the UI so far.

One thing that is worth considering is having a small + or other symbol on items that can also be right clicked.
(or as in Modo, where the icons change if you press ctrl or shft, showing you what other commands are available).

Talking about this isolate function, I'm actually using this script :

script:moi.geometryDatabase.invertSelection(); moi.geometryDatabase.hide( true );

I just find a little problem when you want to isolate curve that are in edit mode (show points activated), using this script on this kind of curve make the curve dissapear (hidden). I have to admit I don't need to isolate that kind of curve often, but it's probably cool to fix this behavior.

Hi PaQ - I guess that is actually a bug in that script. I think I'll be making a more "built-in" isolate function and it will be easier to have more logic in there for handling points on.

So I've been thinking of right-click on Hide and currently I'm thinking of changing the Hide system to work like this:


Left click on Hide when objects are selected = hide those objects (same as currently)

Left click on Hide when no selection = show all objects (different - currently this shows you the hidden objects and lets you pick some objects to show).


Right click on hide when objects are selected = isolate those objects by hiding non-selected objects (except for objects with points on)

Right click on hide when no selection = pick some objects to show.



There are a lot of people who get confused by the current "Show" system where it lets you temporarily view all the hidden objects and then you can pick a sub-set to show, or click a second time to show them all. I think this would probably solve that since the left click "Show" would become a simple immediate "Show all", which would remove that confusion. But the "Show just some" functionality is still there easy to access when needed by just doing a right-click instead...

Any feedback on whether the above sounds good or bad?


It's pretty important for me to have a lot of functions like this condensed into one button instead of 4 buttons, because it allows me to add a similar "Lock" button later on and have just 2 buttons for doing those things instead of 8 buttons.

- Michael

Hi Michael ;)
A list very short (in caracteres) will be useful for compare the different options for help to choice (and understand) for feedback!
Because in a full text it's not very easy!)
Something like
Object Selected
Click Right Mouse =
Click Right Mouse + Shift =
Click Left Mouse =
Click Left Mouse + SHift =
Objects not Selected
Click Right Mouse =
Click Right Mouse + Shift =
Click Left Mouse =
Click Left Mouse + SHift =
etc...

Hi Michael,

I'm not a big fan from this kind of multi purpose button depending of which mouse bouton you are clicking.
I never read MoI documentation because icons where speaking by themself, and there are no hidded subtilities.
In fact I never really understand this sub hide option until you describe it now :o)

The isolate function (for me) is quite different from an hide/show mechanism. I mean when I decide to isolate something, I want to focus in a short amount of
time on a part of my model, and I expect, when I 'un'isolate it, to come back from my previous view, when hidden stuff are still hidden.

For example, A, B, C are 3 objects, C is currently hidden ... I isolate A, work on A, unisolate A, I have A and B back on the screen (while C is still hidden as before the isolate operation).

Finally I don't know how the layers will work, but I hope to be able to hide/show stuff through the layers system, and not with the actual method.

And last but not least, I really 'need' to be able to use a shortcut for the isolate function.

@PaQ
> I never read MoI documentation
Ah! C'est bien la peine qu'on se donne du mal! :) :) :)

Hi Pilou, a compact description would be like this:

Object selected:
Left click = Hide selected objects
Right click = Hide unselected objects (isolate selection)

No objects selected:
Left click = Show all hidden objects
Right click = Pick which hidden objects to show.

- Michael

Hi PaQ, yes definitely the scene browser tree thing will have a way to hide or show a particular group of objects.

Also the current shortcut that you use for isolate will continue to work, I will just likely be adding a new function available to script that will handle the situation for points on a little better. You can then change your shortcut to call this new one if you want.


re: no multi-purpose buttons...

Unfortunately there are a lot of conflicting forces here.

It is good to avoid hidden functions when possible.

It is also generally good to have a streamlined UI that does not overwhelm users with a tremendous number of buttons.

I have to try to reconcile these different goals, usually that will mean I need to put more "advanced functions" to be an auxiliary type function on some standard UI when it is possible to combine things.

The main other choice that I have to maintain the simple and streamlined UI is to not add in new functions at all...

- Michael

< The main other choice that I have to maintain the simple and streamlined UI is to not add in new functions at all...
Maybe an extremist target :)

Your "short list" seems reasonnable !)

At first I was going to say I didn't like the proposed change but I see it's just moving things over to the right-click of the button so that's fine with me...

I can appreciate some folks not wanting seperate functions for depending on if the button is right or left clicked but I personally don't see that as a problem since I can appreciate Michael's need to conserve UI space.

The one thing I like that some of my apps have (3D-Coat, Silo and others) is a tool tip over each button when the cursor over it.

It really helps when you're new to the app. Later it can be switched off if desired to remove the reminders.

If MOI displayed a tip on the left/right functionality of the buttons (status bar or tooltip) that would help those who (like myself), also haven't fully read though the manual.

-Will

michael,
you wrote that some people find the 'show hidden object' mode confusing, maybe when onen uses Hide to show hidden objects, there cold be a popup text that appears ('Hidden Objects').
Same with the isolate command toggle, there could be an 'Isolate mode' text that appears.

I seem to recall that 3dsmax does this - have not used it for years.

The list from Pilous is what I would like to avoid.....
I think it is better when the buttons are straight forward, as much as possible.
Especially for those of us who model using a graphic tablet.

Hi Okapi,

> The list from Pilous is what I would like to avoid.....

I'd definitely like to avoid key combinations on buttons to do things.

But left click for the primary functions and right click for some advanced functions is a pretty good way to get multiple use out of the same UI.

It is a pretty big priority to make a single piece of UI "pull more weight" and do more functions when it is possible.

Most things in MoI are actually set up that way already since they do different things depending on the current selection. For example if you have 2 lines selected and you do a Fillet command, it will produce a curve/curve fillet since it looks at the current selection. That's instead of having a separate "Curve fillet" button next to an "Edge fillet" button and so forth.

Hide/show on the same button is another example where it looks at the selection to do different things - if there is a selection it will do one operation (hide the selection) and if there is not a selection it does a different one (lets you pick objects to show currently).

So basically that fits in pretty well with how a whole bunch of other stuff is already working - to be context sensitive to the selection I mean.

- Michael

Hi okapi,

> maybe when onen uses Hide to show hidden objects,
> there cold be a popup text that appears ('Hidden Objects').

It's an interesting idea - I'm not sure exactly where the text would appear though, do you have any ideas?

One problem might be that on a complex project you may typically have some stuff hidden all the time anyway, pretty much making it a permanent button for that case.

- Michael

Well, so far I use the Hide command to toggle the hidden then objects, select those I want, and make them visible.
During this procedure, (when only the hidden objects are shown), there could be a popup text shown (HIDDEN OBJECTS) or similar.
When something is selected and 'un-hidden', then text would dissapear.

alternatively, you could show hidden objects, when pressing H, with a slight hue.

If text, i would be nice as an HUD object, just a floating text in the active viewport.
This could also work well wih an isolate command.

Hi okapi, there actually is already a text being displayed for this - it's the command prompt in the upper-right area of the screen:




When the hidden objects are being displayed, that prompt is shown, and when you are done selecting them, it does go away like you are talking about...

- Michael

Michael,
you are right, forgot about that. I have not been using Moi much lately...

I though an HUD king of text would be easier to see, since your eyes stay focused on the viewport
(especially if you use shortcuts for the Hide or isolate commands)