Hi Ed,

> For odd shaped objects or multiple selections, then the bounding
> box dimension is the one to use.

What is the definition of an "odd shaped object" though - is it anything other than a rectangle?

Does taking one corner point of a rectangle and moving it to the inside a bit change the rectangle to then be an "odd shape"? If so then that means that moving a rectangle's point by a tiny amount in one direction would cause the whole shape to report a completely different size than the previous rectangle's size, even though it was just a tiny edit.

I think that's a pretty bad problem... I just don't think that method is viable, it's too brittle and not general purpose enough. It would not really be of much use unless you were only modeling with rectangles and no other shapes - that is a pretty big limitation.

The current system that I'm using is general purpose and doesn't have that kind of "morphing the width by height dimensions after small change" problem.

There is another alternative that would be more in line with what you are asking, but it involves a fair amount of work and various technical difficulties and side effects. That system would be to keep a "local axis" defined on every single curve that was created, so that for example if you edited the rectangle and moved one of its points over a bit, it would still remember the original rectangle's orientation and report its size in that orientation so there wouldn't be a sudden shift.

That involves a whole bucket load of problems though, it probably requires methods to see and edit those local axes, and typically having an local axis showing up right in the middle of a bunch of curves is a rather weird thing in many aspects, it kind of takes away some of the simple "2D drawing" type behavior, like it is just strange to be working on a drawing made up of a lot of lines and have all these special "axis markers" in the middle of each individual line segment, filling the screen with odd marks... But if you don't show those axis markers prominently then it becomes hard to know what directions are being used for the bounds reporting. Another related way is to make all curves live only on a "sketch plane". That can prevent proliferation of tons of "local axis" marks all over the place, but then tends to have the bad effect of restricting your freedom to just draw curves or lines in space at arbitrary 3D locations.

So there is kind of a whole load of baggage that comes along with such things that I'm not particularly hot to dump into MoI...


> Same idea would apply to changing the size of doors and
> windows in an architectural drawing to elements having
> standard dimensions.

This would probably be better handled with a kind of "component" system like SketchUp.

Instead of trying to stick a "local axis" on every single curve and individual line object, it would be better if it was only something like a "component instance" or "block instance" type object would have such an axis. That would be more natural for such an entity to prominently display the axis when it was selected, it would not be as weird as seeing a line drawing with a zillion axis markers in the middle of all the lines...

So I'm thinking it may not be until that type of mechanism is available in MoI before things would work totally in the way that you are asking about. I'm not really sure when that will happen, there are some other kinds of basic object organization mechanisms that I'm probably going to try to get working first before that.


The way the current system works, you can see and edit the proper dimensions that you are talking about though if you set the construction plane to be oriented along that plane.

So for example if you want to edit some curves for a window, set the construction plane to the wall that they are on, then when you select those curves the bounding information that you see and can edit will be the bounds oriented in that wall. That should give you a way to make those kinds of edits until the time that a component type system is available. This system also works with curves of any shape, not just rectangles.


Anyway, those are some of the issues involved as for why the system works the way it currently does.


- Michael

Hi mushroomgod - re: hide / show options

One problem with the setup that you are mentioning there is not having any way to show just some of the objects that were hidden instead of all of them.

That was a pretty heavily requested function for hide/show capabilities.


That's the reason why there is some added complexity to the current hide/show mechanism - when you click twice to show all, there is also another alternative, which is to click once, then you see all the objects that were hidden, and if you want to only show just a couple you can pick those and then push done (or click the hide button or right-click in a viewport which are aliases for pushing "Done" in this case) and only those particular ones will be shown instead of all.


The request for this came up so frequently that I made a pretty difficult decision to incorporate this kind of additional power directly into that hide/show mechanism instead of just doing a one-click "show all". It is a case where I decided to sacrifice some simplicity to gain more functionality and power.


It's a pretty significant UI design benefit to have only one button for hide/show, in the future I'll probably want to also add a "Lock/unlock" mechanism, and having the full mechanism encapsulated in one button makes that a lot more possible - having 2 buttons for each of these kinds of functions makes it much harder to incorporate additional ones.


I'm certainly up for making right-click do something, and I think there are actually 2 separate things that I can do for right-click - I can do one thing if you right click when there is a selected object (isolate it by hiding all the non-selected), and if there is no selection I can do some other action when you right-click, which could be used for a "one click show all" I suppose, if that would help.


- Michael

>> Anyway, that is some of the basic ideas and uses for this new widget

Thanks Michael. Not really the accurate way of driving the size I first thought it was. But, as you have said that's a whole different ball game and will have to come later.

Cheers.

Hi Tony -

> Not really the accurate way of driving the size I first
> thought it was. But, as you have said that's a whole
> different ball game and will have to come later.

Actually if I understand what you want correctly, you should be able to use this feature as it is currently set up for getting and editing the exact size that you want.

With angled objects, you will need to set your construction plane to that particular object's plane first though.

Once you have done that, the data that you see and edit there will be the sizes in that particular orientation - that should provide you with exactly the stuff that you were asking about.

Another way to do it is to select a linear edge instead of a whole object - when you select a linear edge the length of the edge will be shown and editable, and that is not dependent on orientation so you do not need to set the construction plane first even for angled objects if you use that method.

That's another way that the current system can be used to get the precise information that you are looking for.

So there are a couple of different ways that the current system can be used to do the job that you want, unless I have misunderstood what you are looking for?


I guess the thing to watch out for is if you rotate an object, the world bounding box of that object will be reported until you set your construction plane to the same orientation as the object.

The part that should get better in the future is with things like "instances", those will likely carry around their own axis information as part of the object itself, which will make it easier for those objects to report size in its own axis directions immediately without relying on the construction plane's axis directions.

- Michael

Thanks for the tips on using this new function, Michael. It looks like the bit with the single edge is what I'm after.

Cheers.

If I dissapear from the forum it's probably because this has got the better of me.

I am tooooo old.

Brian

Hi Brian, I'm sorry I'm not at all following what your image is showing...

You've got a big red arrow pointing to the name "Options" that is the title of the Options dialog?

Is there something wrong with the title?

- Michael

The key board options don't!

And, I am not interested in complex methods to reinstate.

Sorry. I exist one day at a time. (LW9.5 is in the rubbish bin)
I should not need to call on the likes of Burr to be my saviour.

Brian

Being odious---3DC is on it's 41st V3 Beta update since Sept 16th----have not had to do a single "Brian".

Hi Brian,

Do you mean none of your shortcuts work at all?

For example one is setup for for Delete key = Delete function.

Does pushing the Delete key work for you or is that not working?


It looks like you have a whole bunch of keyboard shortcuts set up for numerous custom plugins, though - those are probably the ones that are not working for you since you probably do not have any of those plugins installed into the new beta.

I kind of wonder what you do with all those plugins in the first place? I mean each of them was created to help someone with a particular specialized problem, are you running into all of those specialized problems on a regular basis?


> Being odious---3DC is on it's 41st V3 Beta update since
> Sept 16th----have not had to do a single "Brian".

Did you also install a bunch of custom plugins and customize the UI for 3DC as well?


It seems like you get frustrated with new beta releases since they don't contain your customizations.

I'd recommend staying away from the new betas and instead sticking with v1 which is all set up as you want, correct?

Once v2 is all wrapped up and I'm not churning out new versions of it, I will be happy to help you get the final v2 all set up for you.

But I'm sorry I just do not have the time available to support customized installations on every single beta release. If you're not able to apply your customizations to each beta yourself you will need to wait until the betas are over before I will be able to help you with them.

I mean I wish I had more hours in the day to help every individual person set up a custom version of MoI just specifically for their individual needs, but I just flat out do not have enough time available for that.

If none of that works for you, then it sounds like MoI is probably not meeting your needs properly and you may want to switch to a different program that works better for you.

- Michael

Michael

1. Should I have to go through all the list of keyboard functions listed, when opening of the current version of MoI, to confirm which work? Have you/anyone checked? None of the Nudge, big or small, seem to work?

2.Basically, on the Keyboard Shortcuts, as they seem to be set up?, I don't see why I should have to have a mental thing in mind that--This is a function---This is a "Plugin"
(That current list is a combination of what I had and which Burr provided before---I think!----does it matter?)

3. I only get frustrated with Beta releases which don't retain the modifications which I have instigated previously.
The various beta releases--even most updates-- I have been involved with, seem to only modify the "changes" of the app parts----all my inserts/files saves/ sundry being retained in the up date? (Have I been spoilt?)

Sorry--think of me as the "Devils Advocate!"----how many people, at the younger age computer compatability, may be having similar, unexpressed, "why's"!

I wish I make it to Xmas----that I will make it to the actual release of V2 is not yet on my radar!
(What I think/say has no revelance other than it may open minds to potentials of thought.--)

Brian (grumble/grumble!)

My wife loves me---I think! (55years on Jan 16th!)

Hi Brian,

> 1. Should I have to go through all the list of keyboard functions
> listed, when opening of the current version of MoI, to confirm
> which work? Have you/anyone checked? None of the Nudge, big
> or small, seem to work?

Actually, it would be good to focus just on Nudge - can you confirm that Nudge works as you want in your installation of MoI v1?

That would be good for me to know if it works for you in v1 but not in v2.

I did just do a quick test of Nudge over here and it worked fine for me in the latest beta. Of course, you have to install it first before it will run, if it is not installed into v2's \commands folder, it will not be found by the new installation and will not run. I suspect that is what is happening in your situation - you have probably installed the plugin for v1 but have not yet installed it for v2.

The listing on the keyboard shortcut just tells MoI which command to run when that key is pressed - if the command's script file is not present inside of the \commands folder, then nothing will run.


> how many people, at the younger age computer compatability, may
> be having similar, unexpressed, "why's"!

For this particular issue you mean?

It's hard to place a number on it, the level of unexpression seems to be pretty high since I've only really heard it described as a big problem from just you! :)

- Michael

Michael

The basic nudge works ok in V1 but not in this current V2 beta!

I have not installed, changed anything with the current V2 Beta---exactly installed as downloaded.

I am an athiest!----hope you can giggle over that for an hour or three!

Brian

Hi Brian, it sounds like there may be a bug in v2.

Remember v2 is a beta release and not a finished version so it would not be very strange to have a bug in it!


Since you say that Nudge is working properly in v1 then for now you may need to switch to v1 when you need to do Nudging, that would be an immediate solution to your Nudge problem.

It is a good idea to keep v1 around so that you can use it when you run into any bugs or problems in v2!



But probably the specific thing that is making V2's Nudge not work is that you haven't installed that custom command into V2 yet.

If you go to the \commands folder in V1's program files folder, you will probably find a file there named Nudge.js which you had added in to your v1 installation earlier at some point.

If you copy that Nudge.js file into the V2 beta's \commands folder, that will probably fix up your v2 to do Nudging as well I think.


Can you try copying that file over, and let me know if that makes Nudging work on your v2 installation after that?

If so, then that would let me be more sure of what the problem is.

- Michael

Brian,
Extract these files and put them in your Commands folder of the new beta release.

MoI 2.0 beta Nov-21-2008

Remember to re-visit this video on how and where to copy.

http://www.i386group.com/moi/b/for_brian.htm

Just do the "Command" files. Not the sidepane part, we already did that.

Also remember the new folder name as above, not the "sept" one.

Just my 2 cents.
I'm talking about standard scripts and assigning keyboard shortcuts to them here.

All the keyboard shortcut assignments are saved in the moi.ini file, right ? then when I install the new beta release, I uninstall the previous beta and what ever is left in the 'commands' directory are all the extra scripts that I had put in, so it is a matter of cut n paste those into the new just installed beta 'commands' dir and presto everything is as it was.

Am I missing something here with this subject ?

---------

Hi Danny, you've got it all correct there.

- Michael

All the file copying and saving and moving is confusing for Brian. I tried to make it easy but fear I just made it worse.

Michael
I am somewhat confused at the .66 post. Sorry.

Burr
Your original downloads for this current beta did not install. I have been in the "wait for V2 final" mode you suggested.
NOT a Brian thing--as I said,---- (will I be alive for V2?!!!!)

I will double check/install from that current post.

Danny
That particular cut/past principle you suggest is not a mode of thinking that I have ever experienced before (remembered!!!!).
I am trying to open the thought that, potentially, the major customers of apps , the mid/lower user level, are not conversant with all this--rigmarole!

Fingers crossed for Burrs's solution.

Brian

Hi Brian,

> I am somewhat confused at the .66 post. Sorry.

How about one step at a time:

1. Can you locate the MoI v1 folder in the regular Windows system file browser?

2. Can you locate the "commands" folder that is underneath it?

3. Can you locate the file Nudge.js that is inside that commands subfolder?

4. Try copying that Nudge.js file to the other \commands folder underneath your v2 installation folder.


After you follow those steps, does that make Nudge work for you on your version 2.0 beta, or do you still see a problem after that?


- Michael