Requests &...from Pilou:)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.14 In reply to 207.6 
> Just an automatic function "close" some hole (s) in an object when you
> select the hole 's edges
> Seems quasi impossible :)
> Maybe by some "Sweeps" edges one by one :)

As Jonah mentioned, there is a NURBS tool called "Patch" or "N-sided Patch" which is usually used as a hole filling mechanism. MoI will have this eventually but I'm not sure exactly when.

But even that tool is more suited for filling an area that is rather smooth in shape, it is not good for filling in a very large area with very irregular shapes.

If you have a very large hole with irregular boundaries, there is just no single definition of what the shape of the surface should be in that area. So it is not really possible to have a completely automatic system to fill any gap, any more than it is possible to have a system to automatically create the initial model's shape from nothing.

Just in the same way that you create the initial shape by drawing curves and constructing surfaces, you also need to create the filling surface in the same way, you have to draw curves and define what type of shape you want to have in that area (just as you are suggesting with doing sweeps and such).

To automatically fill in something complex like you're showing would require a lot of "artifical intelligence" on the part of the software... This level of AI isn't going to be ready anytime soon! :)

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.15 In reply to 207.14 

> This level of AI isn't going to be ready anytime soon! :)
This is maybe a good new :)
Thx for All!

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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.16 In reply to 207.13 
> No it's not exactly that: Sweep is not suffisant :) Look after the
> object C, it's near the solution :)
> A mix of A, B ,C

To do it just in one sweep, you would have to use a path more like this:



But it is a complex enough shape with those sharp swinging ends that are bunched together, that you would probably need to construct it in several different parts just as you have shown...

As a shape gets more complex with different corners and bunched-together areas, the less likely it becomes that you will be able to create it automatically with using only one application of one single tool. It is normal that you will need to break such things up into smaller pieces.

Sometimes it is also possible that you could use some additional shape curves to help define it better. With your initial curves, MoI just doesn't know that the initial shape is supposed to swing around more rapidly than the curve is turning.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.17 In reply to 207.16 
Yes :)
All that seems reasonable !
The discovery of the day will be the 2 separates oposite curves along the Sweep rail !!!
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.18 

I discover again than a "Sweep" can have any numbers of different profils !
So the "icone" of "Sweep" is some misleading :)

A funny & terrific thing is make a sweep and after select the rails / show Points, Add Points and move the points!!!
In this case (show points enable) does exist a trick for move the last point as a "tangente" ?
(only warm points, and axes seems work not the "tangent" (?) )
For the moment the only I found is draw another line as "tangent" and return to the point for move it on this new line ! It's no so bad :)

EDITED: 7 Nov 2006 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.19 In reply to 207.18 
> In this case (show points enable) does exist a trick for move the last point as a "tangente" ?

One easy way is to just draw a line like you mention.

Another way is to select your point, then use the Transform / Move tool. Then drag a construction line along the tangent direction that you want.

The Transform/Move command can sometimes be a better way to move things with precision, since the existing object remains snappable, and you can also create construction lines with it easier than you can with dragging style movement.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.20 In reply to 207.19 

Yes!!! It was the "move tool" ! That rocks! THx!
Another time no think to take a "tool" for move a point, thinking that mouse's moves (or Pen's moves:) were sufficent !

Another little thing :)
That is a tangente with the last point of control "out" the curve
Is it the same tangent than a point who will be near the extremity and the extremity but "on" the curve?
Seems yes, but I ask the question :)

EDITED: 8 Nov 2006 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.21 In reply to 207.20 
> Is it the same tangent than a point who will be near the extremity and
> the extremity but "on" the curve?
> Seems yes, but I ask the question :)

Yes, the way NURBS curves work is the end tangent direction of the curve is defined by the direction of the last 2 control points.

But just to be clear - a point on the curve that is near the end but a small distance away from it will not have this tangent quite yet - it is only the very end of the curve that has this tangent. But I think that you have shown that in your graphic. As you move closer and closer along the curve towards the end point, the curve's tangent at that point will get closer and closer to the line between those 2 points.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.22 In reply to 207.21 

Yes very very closer but not the same :)
In the file linked...
There are one big curve "curve", a little curve "straight" near the extremity and "on" it, a big curve "straight" tangente to the little curve
I had no preconceived ideas of that, now I am fixed :)
That maybe good to know that in particular extrem conditions :)
So it's better to draw out a curve "curve" by the function "Extend" than by an tangent aligment to the control's points :)

So MoI is a very cool tool for verify geometry concepts :)

Ps Is it possible to have somewhere the Zoom status? (with some decimal numbers :)
I have made that : a curve extend to a line, and an extension by the alignment of the control point (see divergence jpg)
I made some mouse's wheel actions before see a "divergence" :)
What is the "clickety clack zoom dimension" of a wheel action?
I made as an approximation of 125 "single" clikety clack :)

PSs Have you plan an "intersection Snap On" with a surface when you start a line ?

EDITED: 8 Nov 2006 by PILOU


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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.23 In reply to 207.22 
> So it's better to draw out a curve "curve" by the function "Extend"
> than by an tangent aligment to the control's points :)

I'm not sure about "better", these do slightly different things. Extend will not change the shape of the existing curve, it will add a line segment to the end of it (except if it is an arc, it will create a bigger arc in that case). This is the equivalent of drawing a line off the end of the curve that is tangent to it, and then joining the line and the curve together. Except if your starting curve is a line it will make a single new line in that case.

When you move a control point, the shape of the curve will change, but if you keep the points aligned in the same direction the end tangent of the curve will be the same.


> Ps Is it possible to have somewhere the Zoom status? (with some decimal numbers :)

It's a little bit hard to add this in quickly because that's a piece of new UI that has to go somewhere. Eventually I think there needs to be some view properties dialog that will let you see and change a few different things about the view, including zoom factor.


> I made some mouse's wheel actions before see a "divergence" :)

A very small divergence is normal in many cases. Some operations such as intersections are calculated to the modeling tolerance value, which by default is 0.01, so it is not unusual that there will be gaps and things when you zoom in tighter than that. Also just mathematics in general is limited on the computer since there is only 8 bytes of data to hold each number. So the range of numbers that can be expressed is limited and this inherently creates small errors just from adding and multiplying numbers together. If you zoom in tight enough you can see these kinds of very small divergences as well.

That's why many things work with a tolerance value, like for instance join will join together two curves if their ends are within the modeling tolerance of each other, they don't have to be exactly touching with 0 divergence.


> What is the "clickety clack zoom dimension" of a wheel action?

One clickety clack will adjust the zoom factor by 0.8 in the top/front/right view. In the 3D view it is slightly different, it doesn't change a zoom factor there instead it moves you by a percentage of the distance between the eye point and the pivot point.


> PSs Have you plan an "intersection Snap On" with a surface when you start a line ?

Probably eventually. But this is a somewhat difficult area since the intersection with a surface is a fairly intensive calculation, so performance is a concern there. That's why I haven't attempted to do it yet.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.24 

Does exist some limitations or precautions with these sorts of auto Intersect surfaces?
MoI manage them without restrictions?
The "auto trim" don't work is that normal ? (I suppose yes :)
The trim between surface and its generator's curve works fine :)

PS Snap grid disable
Some 2 D curves drawing with intersections a,b,c
When you move a circle by one unordinary point to the intersections a,b,c there is no snaping, but if you move this same circle by its "Quadran" there is snaping on "warm point" a,b,c !
Is that normal? :)
I am agree that is the same but for an ellipse? :)
Aaaaaaaaaah Sorry I have fogotten another time the function "Move" ! Sorry

EDITED: 9 Nov 2006 by PILOU


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 From:  tyglik
207.25 
Hi, I hope I may join you, Pilou, to attack Michael with our requests or questions.....


In rhino, there is a way how to define points both in construction plane coordinates
and in world coordinates for each viewport; i can type "x,y,[z]" or "wx,y,[z]".
It seems that it should work identically in MoI, but it doesn't.

-switch into the Front view
-start point command and type 5,5 via keyboard
-repeat it for w5,5
-both points lie at the same location, hmmm?

Is this bug, feature or my mistake?

Petr
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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.26 In reply to 207.24 
> Does exist some limitations or precautions with these sorts of auto Intersect surfaces?
> MoI manage them without restrictions?

These are usually called "self-intersections". These types of surfaces will cause problems in several areas, especially things involving surface intersections (which includes trim, booleans, fillets). It creates a problem in the topology of an object, where one 3D point location belongs to multiple different spots on the surface - this can mess up several algorithms.

So it is best to try and avoid making those types of surfaces if you want to do any more advanced operations to them later on.


> When you move a circle by one unordinary point to the intersections
> a,b,c there is no snaping, but if you move this same circle by its "Quadran"
> there is snaping on "warm point" a,b,c !
> Is that normal? :)

It's normal - when you drag an object, it will snap the base point of the drag to either the end, mid, quadrant, or (for solids) the center points just of that object. Intersections are not included because those are not points that sort of "only belong" to the individual object. It would look kind of strange for instance while you were dragging the object around and the "Int" label showed up while you were dragging it. However, having "end, mid, quadrant, or center" show up while you are dragging makes more sense I thought.

Just as you realized, you can use Transform/Move to lock the base point on the intersection if you need to.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.27 In reply to 207.25 
Hi Petr,

> Is this bug, feature or my mistake?

I consider it to be a feature. :)

This particular thing tends to be an area of confusion in Rhino, that typing 5,5 produces a different 3D point location depending on what viewport is active. It is particularly bad in the split view where it is so easy to accidentally change the active viewport just by moving your mouse around without even clicking somewhere.

In MoI this is different - simple coordinate input with no decorations (like 5,5) will always use world coordinates. I think this is really what most people would expect (unless you have become accustomed to other software that does it differently of course).

That just helps to eliminate one area of confusion. The "w" syntax is supported to do the same thing just for people who are accustomed to it from Rhino.

There is currently no way to type in construction-plane relative coordinates. I suppose I could add this in using a new "c" syntax, like "c5,5". What do you think about that? There is not exactly the same concept of an "active viewport" in MoI as there is in Rhino though. But internally there is a concept of the last clicked viewport, and there is also the concept of a full-screen viewport. So the way I would figure it would work is if you have a full screen viewport, it would use that viewport's construction plane, otherwise for the split view it would use the last viewport that was clicked in.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.28 In reply to 207.26 
So reserve 'auto intersect' for exotic topologic forms like Boy's Surface or Klein' s Bottle or Big Bang / Big Crunch and Black's Hole :)
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 From:  tyglik
207.29 In reply to 207.27 
Hi,

>>This particular thing tends to be an area of confusion in Rhino, that typing 5,5 produces a different 3D point location depending on what viewport is active.

...not to be confusing for me. When I work in 2D view I am just drawing and don't care about 3D.

>>It is particularly bad in the split view where it is so easy to accidentally change the active viewport just by moving your mouse around without even clicking somewhere

yes, I must agree with you in that, it sometimes happens to me, haha...

>> ...simple coordinate input with no decorations (like 5,5) will always use world coordinates. I think this is really what most people would expect...

It is hard not only for me to place a points in 3D space while looking at "non-corresponding" 2D view, so I might value something like "c5,5" or it seems to be better idea to add world axis icon to non-3D viewport, so I wouldn't be confused enough. On the other hand, MoI's construction lines is so powerful (it just groups Rhino's ortho mode, elevator mode, planar mode, tab constraint and AshlarVellum's DraftAssistant together) that users are encouraged to work more in the 3D view where "w5,5" or "5,5" is the same. Besides, it can always be done with drawing in Top viewport and then rotating the drawing.


>>There is currently no way to type in construction-plane relative coordinates. I suppose I could add this in using a new "c" syntax, like "c5,5". What do you think about that?

I think that the rhino's concept world coordinate system 'wx,y,z' versus local one is essential because there is a way how to change the direction and origin of the construction plane. For instance, if I change the origin in Rhino's Perspective view and type "5,5,5" vs. "w5,5,5" there will be absolutely different location of the points. Thus, if you decided not to add the command handling a construction plane, you could give up new 'c' idea perhaps


By the way, it makes no sense to initiate an input field after typing "w" or "r" without running command, so this is a misfeature I guess


Petr
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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.30 In reply to 207.29 
> On the other hand, MoI's construction lines is so powerful (it just groups
> Rhino's ortho mode, elevator mode, planar mode, tab constraint and
> AshlarVellum's DraftAssistant together)

Cool, I'm glad that you're finding it useful! I think the other important factor is that it stays out of your way until you call for it with the drag gesture. I've seen many other systems that get triggered too easily and then sometimes end up getting in the way.


> Thus, if you decided not to add the command handling a construction
> plane, you could give up new 'c' idea perhaps

I'm not planning on adding construction plane handling in for V1, but I haven't given up on it forever. I think it will come in future versions.

Once you have set a custom construction plane, I figure it will probably affect all views and then at that point it would probably make sense for typed-in coordinates to be in that new coordinate system instead of world. I don't think that would be surprising anymore, because you would have to do something in particular to activate it.

But just having the coordinate system shift by having a particular view active is more of a problem.


> By the way, it makes no sense to initiate an input field after typing "w" or
> "r" without running command, so this is a misfeature I guess

I've fixed this for the next beta so that focus will only go to the xyz coordinate input if there is a point currently being picked.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.31 

Does exist a "full screen" without the UI? (just keeping Zoom Pan Rotate...)

Ps What is the utility when you make a loft of the "Clic on curve for change seam"?
Ok that permit to "move" the seam, works fine but what is the use of that :)

EDITED: 19 Nov 2006 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
207.32 In reply to 207.31 
> Does exist a "full screen" without the UI? (just keeping Zoom Pan Rotate...)

No not right now. I've thought a little bit about making some way to collapse/expand the side pane and bottom toolbar to make this possible, but I don't think that this will be available for V1.


> Ps What is the utility when you make a loft of the "Clic on curve for change seam"?
> Ok that permit to "move" the seam, works fine but what is the use of that :)

Most of the time there isn't any use in it because the automatic calculation for how to align things works pretty well. But that method is provided in case the automatic alignment didn't work very well.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
207.33 

Filet in this case is pemited?

Edit Very curious I have reload the file and all was Ok!!!
So Does exist a "refresh" function? (reinialize of Pan Rotate don't refresh that)

ps What is exactly history?
Can make this?
Object filet, modif, modif....
Replace at the end the first filet by a chamfer

EDITED: 20 Nov 2006 by PILOU

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