Spaceball Oddities  1-20  21-22

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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.1 
Hi All,
I use a Spaceball, I had a look on the forum but nothing with this problem.
On some particular models every direction works except for twist, but the funny thing is when I open a new session and draw a box it's all good.
I think I've worked out the logic behind the rotation point focus in MoI, but on this one particular model it won't twist, has anyone else experienced this, it's starting to get annoying.

Cheers
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.2 In reply to 1858.1 
Hi Danny, I haven't heard of this one before... Possibly something to do with being oriented upside down?

Can you please send me the model (moi@moi3d.com) so I can give it a try over here?

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.3 In reply to 1858.2 
Hi Michael,

I looked into it a bit more and discovered why it is just this particular model but I still find it strange the way it behaves in 3D view.
If you draw a box 25X25X5 in the 'Right' view and then using the spaceball in 3D view you can't twist the box around either the X or Y axis.
I find this limiting in trying to work with the model and end up using the mouse or GUI manipulators, this behaviour is not present in the other 3D apps I use, it doesn't matter how you orient the model in 3D view it will twist around any axis in the other apps, that is.

Thanks
~Danny~

EDITED: 9 Aug 2008 by DANTAS

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.4 In reply to 1858.3 
Hi Danny, maybe the thing that you're not used to is that in MoI the space ball does not work by "moving the box" - I mean it is not focused on manipulating the object directly.

Instead it is focused on manipulating the viewpoint.

You may be used to the other style where twisting the controls is more intended to spin the object around rather than the view around.

So in MoI, a left-right twist is equivalent to doing a right-mouse drag in the left-right direction which will spin the view around the z axis.

Pushing up or down is equivalent to doing right-mouse drag in the up-down direction on the screen which tilts the view up or down vertically.

By default the last kind of twist is disabled, which is like tilting your head to the left or right. You can enable this kind of tilt if you wish by going to Options / View / Rotate/Pan/Zoom Options / 3Dconnexion options (on the right-side column), and enable the "Allow rotation tilt" checkbox.

Maybe this last kind of tilt is what you are looking for - but with this kind of tilt enabled you are no longer kind of "stabilized" to have the up direction pointing upwards towards z like the normal view manipulation controls are set to do.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.5 In reply to 1858.4 
Hi Michael,

I Predominately work in 3D view and find it difficult to work this way.

> You may be used to the other style where twisting the controls
> is more intended to spin the object around rather than the view around.

Yes, this is where I come from and find it more logical, like having the object in my hand and working on it.

> By default the last kind of twist is disabled, which is like tilting your
> head to the left or right. You can enable this kind of tilt if you wish by going to
> Options / View / Rotate/Pan/Zoom Options / 3Dconnexion options
> (on the right-side column), and enable the "Allow rotation tilt" checkbox.

Yeah, I've got that enabled, but it's still missing that twist around the axis I want.
I guess I'll just work with MoI a bit differently to what I'm used to.

Thanks
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.6 In reply to 1858.5 
Hi Danny, you also might try clicking the "Reverse rotation" button, that may give you a bit more of the feel of object rotation.

But currently MoI's left-right manipulations will happen around the world axes, kind of keeping the "up" direction stabilized, which is probably the main difference from the system you are more used to which uses a more local frame of reference.

I would like to eventually add in some options for different view rotation styles, but it may be a little while before I can get to that.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.7 In reply to 1858.6 
Hi Michael,

> you also might try clicking the "Reverse rotation" button,
> that may give you a bit more of the feel of object rotation.

I've tried all options, what I have checked is 'allow rotation tilt' with this everything works as it should for object orientation, zoom ,pan and rotate, all feel good, it's just 'twist' that's missing, but I can still work in this way, I just use a combination of 80% spaceball, 15% mouse, 5% UI.
When you're at SIGGRAPH in the studio see if you can jump on a cad station with a spaceball and have a drive, you'll see what I mean.

Thanks for your time.
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.8 In reply to 1858.7 
Hi Danny, I'm sorry it's just not clear to me what you mean by twist.

I do have a Space Navigator here, maybe it works differently from a SpaceBall?

With the Space Navigator, there are 3 different rotational motions that you can do.

1 is turning the knob left or right kind of like when you turn the dial on a stove on or off.

2 is tilting forward or backward.

3 is tilting to the left or right.

Here is what happens on my machine with each of these 3 kinds of rotation:




Do none of these map to the type of twist that you are talking about?

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.9 In reply to 1858.8 
Hi Micheal,

Open the attached file, there is a block with a different shape in each corner, when you open the file the triangle cutout is closest to the operator.
Say I want to work in the area of the star, I would like to twist the block around the 'X' axis so the star is now closest to the operator and so on for
the other shapes, even if I turn the block upside down it should work the same way. Is this a bit clearer ?

EDIT 1: Just added a video of what I mean in my other cad package, I can't do this in MoI.
EDIT 2: Revised Video.

~Danny~

EDITED: 27 Mar 2009 by DANTAS

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.10 In reply to 1858.9 
Hi Danny, yes this is because your view in this case is does not have the "up" direction going towards the world z axis. Notice how the world x/y grid is not "underneath" you.

In the model that you posted it is like you are laying on your side on on the floor instead of with your feet on the ground and your head upwards like you would normally be when walking around in a room...

There is twist happening, but it happens around the world z axis instead of around your local "up" frame of reference.

This method of rotation helps to keep you kind of "stabilized" with respect to the z axis. It makes for movement more like real life where you would walk around and look at things in a room, because when you move around in a room you don't slant your head or tilt your body so that your head is pointing in some direction other than upwards...

Many solid modelers do tend to have the totally "local" reference type of rotation, I've always found that to be pretty unnatural because you quickly end up with orientations that are not like natural movement.

But I would like to add an option in for that style of "local"-based view rotation, others have requested it as well and I have put it on the wishlist to keep track of it.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.11 In reply to 1858.10 
Hi Danny, here is a comparison of the different methods.

MoI's method works like this:



As you rotate, your view stays pointed in the same "upwards" direction. MoI is currently focused on this type of rotation since it is more similar to what happens in real life if you have an object on a workbench and you are walking around the workbench to look at it from different angles. It basically keeps your head pointing upwards.

The other style rotates like this:



That style doesn't try to keep your head pointing upwards, and notice how you actually dip below the ground plane - normally when you are walking around a room or doing something in a regular natural environment, you don't move around underneath the ground like that. But this style does keep a more regular kind of localized behavior regardless of which direction you are currently oriented in.

I would like to make an option for the second style of rotation. I didn't want to do that by default for MoI though since it doesn't really map to a very natural type of movement like the first one does.

- Michael

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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.12 In reply to 1858.11 
Hi Michael,

Thanks for the explanation, I understand now and the logic behind it.

> I would like to make an option for the second style of rotation.

I'll be looking forward to when you implement the second style.

> I didn't want to do that by default for MoI though since it doesn't
> really map to a very natural type of movement like the first one does.

I wouldn't say the second style is unnatural though, because it is a natural way of working as a craftsman, like a jeweler or a furniture maker, where you are working with the object with your hands and rotating it around its local axis. If I was working on a ring, I wouldn't walk around it to work on the other side, I would just turn it over.

The style you have in MoI is more suited to an architectural environment and I agree it is a more natural movement in that type of modeling.

Thanks again
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.13 In reply to 1858.12 
Hi Danny,

> If I was working on a ring, I wouldn't walk around it to
> work on the other side, I would just turn it over.

Right, but you would also never get your head turned around so that the top of your head was pointing in some direction other than towards the z axis coming up from your workbench...

That other style of rotation does exactly that - changes your view around so that the direction going "upwards" in the view is no longer stabilized to be in a fixed standard direction.

I guess that's what I mean by "unnatural" - the other method does not treat the view as if it were like your eyeballs, it moves the view around in ways that you would not move your head.

- Michael
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 From:  Tim (BLADEST)
1858.14 In reply to 1858.13 
I always understood that the main point of view for a CGI modeller was sideways from the front, and for a CAD modeller was looking down from above. Just that they are coming from different historical disciplines.

regards Tim.
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.15 In reply to 1858.13 
Hi Michael,

I had a bit of a think about this and I think I've worked out how people visualize the 2 styles.
When you talk about the first style you are talking about moving the whole view around with the model the
second style of manipulation is visualized as if the view is fixed and the model is rotated around in that fixed view
and it is the axis icon that gives you your orientation (stability) of you work so you know where you are.

Does this make sense or is this just my brain ?

-
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.16 In reply to 1858.15 
Hi Danny, yeah that does make sense, that is a good summary of the different methods.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.17 In reply to 1858.1 
Hi Danny - re: spaceball rotation and different methods for view rotations - for the next beta I've added a new option that controls how the 3D view does its rotations:



If you choose the new "Free rotation" option there, I think it will do the style that you are more accustomed to, where it will be more like rotating the object.

This will be under Options / View / Rotate/Pan/Zoom options.

Please let me know if it does not seem to do the right thing when you get a chance to try it.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.18 In reply to 1858.17 
That's Great Michael !

Can't wait to test it. So what's the time frame on the next beta release, if you don't mind me asking.

Cheers
~Danny~
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1858.19 In reply to 1858.18 
Hi Danny,

> Can't wait to test it. So what's the time frame on the next
> beta release, if you don't mind me asking.

Well, I wanted to get it done this week but I'm not quite sure about that now - it takes more time to add in these options than you might think, several hours of work for each one really between testing and setting up the UI for translation, etc... etc...

But these are also things that other people have asked for in the past as well too.

I'd say it is actually looking likely to take until next week sometime to get all the stuff I want into it.

- Michael
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1858.20 In reply to 1858.19 
That's fine Michael, waiting longer for a stable product is better than receiving a quick buggy one ;)

Cheers
~Danny~
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