Hi Michael,

>>Those are definitely missing the "easy to use" aspect which I certainly view as an actual kind of technology and "tool" in itself.

Yes, they do have a steep learning curve, I guess that's why they hire specialized engineers to run these programs.

>>I'm still not so sure that even the "highest" of the high end really has every single thing in it. I mean the fields are so vastly diverse,...

Well I was talking about 'hard' engineering and industrial design including auto.
One particular program that does cater for all in these areas that I know of is Siemens NX (formally Unigraphics) and in relation to the areas that I mentioned it comes close with the bundles/modules they offer, plus third party plugins, plus in house programed specialty tools, which the software allows you to do via VB, C++ and Java.

>>Do you know of a program that has all of these tools simultaneously available in it?

Why would you ? Well, now that you put it that way, no, but you've got a mixture there of 'hard' engineering, architecture, civil engineering and specialized analytic tools which I wouldn't expect to be in a cad program but as a standalone tool.

>>do you know of any existing high end CAD tool which will allow you to export NURBS to polygon mesh data using multi-sided polygons instead of just triangles and quads?

Yes....................MoI :)

.

Hi Danny,

> Yes, they do have a steep learning curve, I guess that's why
> they hire specialized engineers to run these programs.

That's kind of the tricky part.

For example if you had a beginning user and they wanted to model something, and you could give them either MoI or Siemens NX at the same price, which one would you give them?

Would they really be able to make any use of NX? And if not, then why not? I mean if it is high end and has more features, doesn't that mean it is better?

- Michael

Here here! The guy like me is exactly what MoI is targeting! and to even the most experienced....
Moi is Awsome! I would port that Pixar has made its own rendering engine and tool set, yet it still uses maya, 3dstudio max, softimage, etc...... all can render, all can model... why different,,..... they all do somthing different!. all good tools to have.

Do you know of a DESIGNER WITH ONLY ONE TOOLSET?

Most "high end" guy's have an arsenal of things they accomplish tasks with. Not just one!
Burr

Hi Michael,

> For example if you had a beginning user and they wanted to model something,
> and you could give them either MoI or Siemens NX at the same price, which one would you give them?

That all depends, do you mean for business or for personal use ?
For Business, NX.
For Personal use, MoI.

> Would they really be able to make any use of NX? And if not, then why not?
> I mean if it is high end and has more features, doesn't that mean it is better?

Initially with no modeling experience at all, they wouldn't know where to start, from using another cad package
they could be modeling within a couple of hours.
Also with the high end packages they have interactive tutorials that take you through the modeling and whatever
other features it has, step by step using real world examples.

So for the business and the beginner, the business would invest the time for the beginner to get up to speed and
it would benefit more in the long run from using NX.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't of purchased MoI if it didn't suit my needs for private use, it's a fantastic piece of
software and I've been searching for something like this for years.


Hi Burr,

> Do you know of a DESIGNER WITH ONLY ONE TOOLSET?

Yeh ! me at work, NX suits all our needs from product design to mould design to manufacture, the only other software
we have is a FEA/stress analysis tool which we only use on special projects where we think there will be a problem, which
is about twice a year.

> Most "high end" guy's have an arsenal of things they accomplish tasks with. Not just one!

Nope, not where I work, we did some extensive research before we decided which software suited our needs and that was in the late 80's.
I think it would be a different choice these days but thats because of the vast variety on offer.
Software developers aren't as caring and sharing as Michael who thinks about their users and the users needs, the others would never think of
sharing a native file format so that you can share resources between other software you have to find or buy translators that you hope, after
translation that your model is still in a sound state.

-

And there is something you forget ;)
It's a real pleasure (when it's not for the work) to search to resolve a specific solution with only the existent functions !

> That all depends, do you mean for business or for personal use ?
> For Business, NX.
> For Personal use, MoI.

Well, why not NX for both purposes? I mean if NX is a proper "super-set" that has everything that MoI has and more, why wouldn't it be used for personal use as well if cost was not a factor?

I mean, I can probably guess at a few reasons - maybe NX won't even run on someone's low cost garden variety DELL machine. Maybe without a CAD background it will be too complex for them, ...

But if that is the case, then it means that MoI has some capabilities that NX does not have, in some of these really sort of basic areas.

I mean don't get me wrong, for professional manufacturing all the extra stuff in NX is absolutely great stuff for that area of business, and I certainly never recommend for someone to use MoI as a replacement for NX, SolidWorks, Pro/E etc...

But just because NX has more features than MoI does not automatically make it better than MoI in all situations - I mean for the right person and use, being able to run on a low end DELL machine is an essential feature. Same with being easy to use - if software is too complex for someone that they can't make heads or tails of it and don't have a lot of time to devote to taking training, then it is not useful to them no matter how powerful it is. It is just not the right tool for them, it's missing the stuff that is important to their particular situation.

- Michael

> Do you know of a DESIGNER WITH ONLY ONE TOOLSET?

>Yeh ! me at work, NX suits all our needs from product design to mould design to manufacture, the only other >software
>we have is a FEA/stress analysis tool which we only use on special projects where we think there will be a problem, >which
>is about twice a year.

> Most "high end" guy's have an arsenal of things they accomplish tasks with. Not just one!

>Nope, not where I work, we did some extensive research before we decided which software suited our needs and >that was in the late 80's.


But you use MoI! Your toolset is supplemented. Also, must move out of the 80's.

Hello MOI's community

First excuse me for my english, I'm not very easy with this language

2nd and most important i must say that MOI has the Best UI i never see in a CAD or 3D program, construction aids are wonderfull.
All in MOI is Thoughtful and i congragutlate the conceptor. It's the best nurbs modeler for its price and artist's need.

Concerning the subject : modeling a car with MOI. succes will depend how you deal with this soft. If you works with big surfaces an boolean for sculpting i think it's wil be easier than if you need transition surfaces for connecting main surface like in class-A (stantard in design automotive). MOI has not toolset for good class-A modeling. Perhaps in future ?...

here an an exemple of class A modeling
http://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Graphisme/Infographie-3D/solstice-pontiac-classe-sujet_28322_1.htm

Here is very useful link to understand continuity. Look for chapter : Learning Technical Surfacing
http://www.autodesk.com/techpubs/aliasstudio/2009/

Great Job Michael

- Miniko

Cool tut and in french ;)

Hey Miniko,

Thanks for the link. Very informative.

Bogdan

>But just because NX has more features than MoI does not automatically make it better than MoI in all situations - I mean for the right person and use, being able to run on a low end DELL machine is an essential feature. Same with being easy to use - if software is too complex for someone that they can't make heads or tails of it and don't have a lot of time to devote to taking training, then it is not useful to them no matter how powerful it is. It is just not the right tool for them, it's missing the stuff that is important to their particular situation.
>

The scenario I see:

Large manufacturing company with highest end cad software holds a meeting 30 years ago. Big cheese calls design/manufacturing team in to discuss his Moment of inspiration! After meeting, the design engineers announce "we'll bring you a rapid prototype on such-n-such date!" They retreat to their $40,000 workstations with cad program that takes 30 clicks or keystrokes just to launch. They produce the result and schedule the next meeting with Mr. Sharp Cheddar. He makes a simple visualization change that was misunderstood in the meeting and the design team retreats back and repeats the process.

Jump to 2008

Large manufacturing company with highest end cad software holds a meeting. Big cheese calls design/manufacturing team in to discuss his Moment of inspiration! While Mr. Sharp Cheddar begins to layout his vision, Burr, the new guy pulls out his usb stick with MoI loaded on it and follows along. At the end of the meeting Mr. Sharp Cheddar say's "Are there any questions team?", Burr flips his laptop around and asks "Is this what you are looking for?".



Mr. Cheese is a little puzzled and say's "No, You dont understand, I need SEXY LINES for this to work! It's an exterior thingamajiggy!", Burr flips his laptop back and in 45 seconds replies "How about this?"



To which Mr. Cheddar states "This kids a Genius! Give him Danny's job!"

< in 45 seconds replies
It's not a very speedy Latop :)

Hi Burr , ha ha...

Actually though one of the things that the more expensive software is particularly good at is in that area of making changes on things after it has already been built.

MoI is focused more on creating the initial object quickly and easily without jumping through too many hoops.

But those very same hoops in the fancier software are not just for no purpose at all, they help with this kind of back-and-forth tweaking and changing, most definitely.

MoI is sort of more set up with the idea that just an individual person is using it and not so much a whole team of people going through those kind of cycles and filling in TPS reports, etc...

Those kinds of expensive software have whole sets of features and things to work in those kinds of environments where they are often used.

But one cool thing is that MoI can export model data to those systems, so it can work nicely to use MoI as a kind of sketch pad type thing, where you can just cook along drawing new stuff really quickly, and then bring that data into one of those other systems to leverage the things that they do well after that.

But MoI itself is not at all feasible to use as like a complete replacement for those systems, it just is not focused on the same areas.


I guess I don't view one of these things as automatically "better" than another, it all depends on the context of what you want to do. The expensive ones are better in certain contexts, and actually worse in other contexts. That's kind of what I was trying to get at by saying earlier that no one software has the entire feature set that completely covers everything.

- Michael

Hi Michael..... :)

>But one cool thing is that MoI can export model data to those systems,
>so it can work nicely to use MoI as a kind of sketch pad type thing,
>where you can just cook along drawing new stuff really quickly,
>and then bring that data into one of those other systems to leverage the things that they do well after that.

Yup, that is correct.
But, BTW.....when will you add a "2D drawing / communication tools" in Moi ?
I wish you can add those feature in V2 ( even a very simple communication tools )

Or maybe have you another idea so we can add some annotation / dimension before you can cook the features in Moi ?
I think both of "object organization" & "communication tools" will help a lot for Moi users.

Could you please focus your time for those features ?

WARNING : dont take your time for doing a "part time" job !!!!
Just kidding Michael.... :)

Regards,
Anis

Hi Anis, I would like to add some tools for that in v2, but I am not certain yet of the schedule.

I can't do everything all at the same time, and there are still several more modeling-focused type tools that I want to concentrate on first before really being able to do the communication type tools.

Those will definitely be coming at some point in the future, but it is just too difficult right now for me to guess exactly when that will happen.

- Michael

Hi Michael...

>Hi Anis, I would like to add some tools for that in v2, but I am not certain yet of the schedule.
Glad to hear those communication tools will ready for V2 ( at least a very simple one ).

>Those will definitely be coming at some point in the future,
>but it is just too difficult right now for me to guess exactly when that will happen.

Yup, I can understand. I just wish you can manage your time to do so many jobs.

Thanks Michael...!!! :)

Hi Anis,

> Glad to hear those communication tools will ready for V2
> ( at least a very simple one ).

Well, I can't promise that they will be in V2, just that I would like to put them in there if I can find enough time to do it.

If other things take too much time then it may have to be postponed until a later version.

I would not like to do that, but it may be necessary. Right now it is too early to tell you with certainty, sorry!

- Michael

The Story continues............

Mr. Sharp Cheddar wins a contract from GM to design and manufacture plastic injection moulds to produce headlamp bezels, there are 2 to design so he gives one project 'a' to the new 'Genius' Burr with laptop in hand and project 'b' to poor ol' Danny on his workstation.
They both take 2 weeks to complete the modeling, then the shop floor needs detailed drawings of the 20 components that need to be manufactured, Danny completes these in 3-4 days, Burr imports his models into NX and does the detail drawings as well.

Then the CAM guys open up project 'b' individual models from the assembly tree and start generating machine cutter paths, while with project 'a' they have to blank off 19 items to work on one item, then managing the whole project in the one file starts to become difficult and no one else can work on the other models because they've been modeled in one file.

Anyhow, both projects are complete, then Mr. Sharp Cheddar calls in a panic for an engineering meeting and says that the customer has made some styling changes to the product and we have to update all our data to reflect this change.

So off we go, after about 4 hours poor ol' Danny calls Mr.Cheddar and tells him that he's loaded the new product data and updated the models, the detail drawings and the CAM and it's back on track.
The Genius comes back after 3-4 days with the updated models because he had to delete, untrim, rework copy and paste surfaces to get back on track again.
Then he had to load the models back into NX to update all the drawings which took another 3 days, then the CAM guys were complaining because they virtually had to start again because the generated cutter paths all 'fell over' because most of the surface tags have changed and wouldn't update so there was another week there.
Meanwhile, project 'b' is well into machining.


Poor ol' Danny got his position back and well, as for the new guy, Mr.Cheddar decided he should just fold drawings for now until he got proper training.

So Burr, I don't know what industry you come from but this is how it works in the real world in big organizations.

BTW that simple model you did would of taken me the same time to do in NX as it would in MoI.

Cheers

You forgot. Poor old Danny was fired!

The Genius Burr, who realizes that there are more than ONE tool to do the job and utilizing the BEST tool for the job at hand, went back and did the actual job with NX. See, the point was, NX isnt the best tool for everything, Having a toolset is Smart. MoI would have been the tool to use in Mr. CHeddars office while he was presenting, then to show INSTANT results while in the meeting. Poor Danny never made it to the meeting. He was trying to pack up his workstation to use NX to show he can build Complicated full processed workflows.

I am surely a novice. However, the original discussion wasnt that MoI can replace ALL OTHER design packages. No ONE design package can DO IT ALL! Even the most clouded intelligence can surely see that.

And as for how fast you could make the same part I made. I would love to see you at your workstation, nothing open, and Michael at his, and see who finished their part first.

All right you guys, that's probably enough on the "who could do what" type stuff, that's just starting to devolve a bit here, and it is way off the original topic of how to model a car.

All the stuff about "high end" versus "low end" has probably been covered enough here for a while at least.

- Michael