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 From:  BurrMan
1743.1 
I like the new control points for scaling and rotation that are the first apparent thing on launch.
For a sloppy guy like me I may need the "mid control point" for constraint dragging. I saw you wanted to keep the clutter down, though it could even be invisible until moused over to grab. (or did I see you say how to do the 1d drag with a click instead of drag? let me refer back.)

Ok I looked. Kindof getting the hang of it but the mid point is fullproof.

>Let's see what else.... If you hold down shift while dragging a scaling grip, it will perform a 2D scale only, so that will stretch something like a sphere out in only 2 directions and leave the vertical direction untouched to make an ellipsoid type shape.>

This seemed backwards for me. I scaled 2d with just the handle and the shift key kept my circle a circle.?? Clicking to move the scaling point out to the opposite corner enabled 1d scaling.

Is this right?

btw: when I was doing the 2d scaling, if I accidently went and scaled in both x and y instead of just x I would loose my original x. Is there something that would keep this from happening?(more like the midpoint 2d scaler I mentioned above. All regarding the same thing)

Burr

EDITED: 3 Jul 2008 by BURRMAN

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.2 In reply to 1743.1 
Hi Burr,

> I saw you wanted to keep the clutter down, though it could even
> be invisible until moused over to grab.

One of the problems though is not just visual clutter, it's also "selection clutter", where having more spots on the screen taken up with special actions can then get in the way of selecting objects.

Hiding it would definitely solve the visual kind of clutter but it would still be an increase in "selection clutter"...


> (or did I see you say how to do the 1d drag with a click
> instead of drag? let me refer back.)

No, that part is for switching between "scale from center" and "scale from opposite corner".

For doing the 1D scale you kind of move your mouse towards that side direction when you drag away from the grip. A point marker and line will appear to help guide you, that's the line that you want to stay somewhat close to to keep the stretch enabled:



If you move far enough away from both of those lines, stretch mode will be turned off for that drag.

It's kind of a similar mechanism as the "straight snap" that helps you draw straight lines when you get close enough to being straight.

There is a setting you can adjust to increase the kind of "gravity" associated with these lines (both the grip stretch and straight snap) - for that go to Options / Snaps / Straight snap options, and there are 2 settings: "Activate distance" and "Keep active distance". You may want to try putting in something like 12 for Activate distance and 20 for keep active distance - that will make both the straight snap and the grip stretch kick in even if your mouse is a bit further away, it will basically tolerate more wobbly-ness in the mouse movement that way.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.3 In reply to 1743.2 
Ok that answers that. and the "option" to set a softer tolerance for shakey hands is what I was looking for. No need for the mid point. Brilliance at work people!

Thanks
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.4 In reply to 1743.1 
Hi Burr,

> This seemed backwards for me. I scaled 2d with just the handle
> and the shift key kept my circle a circle.?? <...>
>
> Is this right?


That's right, because a circle is already a 2D object with no height to it.

So a 3D scale in x,y,z or a 2D scale just in x,y produces the same result for a circle since all z values remain at 0 for either one of those.

If you do it to something that has z in it like a sphere, you should then see a difference - the sphere will stretch out in the x and y directions but stay fixed in the z direction. It's the same result as using Transform / Scale / Scale2D.

The reason why I don't do a 2D scale automatically is that it would then by default produce squashed-type objects (for ones with volume like boxes or spheres) as the main function.

I wanted to make the "main function" to be just a simple uniform size change instead of a squashing type thing.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.5 In reply to 1743.3 
Hi Burr,

> Ok that answers that. and the "option" to set a softer
> tolerance for shakey hands is what I was looking for.
> No need for the mid point. Brilliance at work people!

Please let me know if you still have problems after adjusting that, but I think that should probably help out a lot.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.6 In reply to 1743.4 
Ah I understand now. My mis interpretation of the language. (And still thinking 2d drafting stuff).

Thanks for the time and "Onward"!

Burr
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.7 In reply to 1743.1 
> btw: when I was doing the 2d scaling, if I accidently went
> and scaled in both x and y instead of just x I would loose
> my original x. Is there something that would keep this
> from happening?

The 1-directional "squishing" will turn off if you get more than 4 times that tolerance screen distance away from either the x or y "squish lines".

That's so that there is a way you can kind of "shake off" the squishing entirely if it is getting in the way of doing a more subtle regular scaling where you want to make a very small adjustment.

I think it is something that won't be such a factor when you know in advance that you want to squish something and track along those squish lines. (rather than just experimenting with the tool I mean).

Please let me know if it continues to be a problem when you are using it for more sort of normal tasks.

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.8 In reply to 1743.6 
>Please let me know if you still have problems after adjusting that, but I think that should probably help out a lot.


That fixed it right up for me! (and as I get older I can jack up those numbers a bit more.)

There's a laugh. "level" sets of "predifined snap" settings so users can brag that "I use the expert set" and then we all know the old guy who needs the tolerence help is the one who is "REALLY" good! Ha.

Thanks again for the guidence!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.9 In reply to 1743.6 
Hi Burr, probably the other thing you were thinking of was what I'd call a "non-uniform" 2D scale.

That's where you would drag the corner and squish in both x and y by different amounts at the same time.

I don't right now have any provision for doing that kind of scale - to that now you would do a 1D scale twice instead.

I wasn't totally sure about doing this, because it is not unusual for that to be the default method of scaling in a 2D illustration application when you drag the corner.

But it seemed like a bad fit for MoI - with MoI's focus on accuracy in general I thought that scaling by a uniform amount should be more the kind of "primary" method.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.10 In reply to 1743.8 
> That fixed it right up for me! (and as I get older I can jack
> up those numbers a bit more.)

Maybe I should ask for your birthday when you first start the program, then I can adjust these settings automatically as time goes on? ;)

I'm glad that setting helped though!

- Michael
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.11 In reply to 1743.10 
>Maybe I should ask for your birthday when you first start the program, then I can adjust these settings automatically as time goes on? ;)>

Actually.....Smart settings could be determined by a "form" in the options. (I was rolling around my office with laughter!)
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 From:  Imensah
1743.12 
These new manipulation handles are cool. Not sure if you've done this already and i can't find it but maybe also include a snap point for flattening your selection or scaling your selection so it is planar. Like flattening a selection of points .
BTW how soon before we see the layer/organizing system?
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1743.13 In reply to 1743.12 
Hi isaac,

> These new manipulation handles are cool. Not sure if you've
> done this already and i can't find it but maybe also include a
> snap point for flattening your selection or scaling your selection
> so it is planar. Like flattening a selection of points .

That's a great idea isaac, tomorrow I will take a look at doing that.

I don't think it will be very difficult to add a "flat" snap in there.


> BTW how soon before we see the layer/organizing system?

I didn't get quite everything that I had wanted into the first beta, so I think I'm going to work on some of that for a couple more weeks here, and then put out a second beta with another batch of stuff in it, then I think I'll be starting in on the organization system for the 3rd beta.

- Michael
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 From:  Bogdan
1743.14 In reply to 1743.13 
Hi,


I've got some ideas for future versions:

- filter the selection by components: points, edges, faces, curves
- Lasso selection
- Raycast selection like XSI
- Eraser to interactively delete components
- Deform by curve, lattice, surface
- Proportional modeling like moving one point will affect surounding points determined by a radius
- Symmetric modeling like building/modifying a curve/solid in both axes at the same time
- Option for Expert mode :) - to hide the menus and tabs with Tab key
- maybe Zebra command one day ? :)

Thanks for reading and please forgive me if anyone have said already about any of these suggestions.
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.15 In reply to 1743.14 
There are customized user interface's you can get in this forum. A guy named ash makes a good one for your "expert mode". Larger monitors and such.
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 From:  tyglik
1743.16 
Hi Michael,


I had some notes related to grips & snap on for those new stuff but you seem to have wiped it out completely above :)
So only two remains:

Could the grips be visible only inside of viewport the mouse is over like view control tabs at the bottom of viewport does?

There is no way to flip an object exactly when you scale using "scale from opposite corner", isn't it?


Petr
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 From:  tyglik
1743.17 In reply to 1743.14 
Hi Bogdan,

>>filter the selection by components: points, edges, faces, curves

You can do this by custom command. See http://kyticka.webzdarma.cz/3d/moi/#SelectByType

Maybe, it is worth mentioning you can select all edges or faces of object by selecting one edge or face in so called drill-in mode and after then you just click a "Sel all" button (Ctrl+A) or drag a selection window over object.


Petr
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 From:  Bogdan
1743.18 In reply to 1743.17 
Hi Petr,

Thanks for the link. Much appreciated.
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 From:  Anis
1743.19 In reply to 1743.13 
Nice start for V2 Michael...

>I didn't get quite everything that I had wanted into the first beta,
>so I think I'm going to work on some of that for a couple more weeks here,
>and then put out a second beta with another batch of stuff in it,
>then I think I'll be starting in on the organization system for the 3rd beta.

Take a rest first Michael, then put your brilliant idea into object organization :-)
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 From:  BurrMan
1743.20 In reply to 1743.19 
>I had some notes related to grips & snap on for those new stuff but you seem to have wiped it out completely >above :)
>So only two remains:


Please look at your forum settings for what to view (a dropdown box at top of thread list). You can scroll to the bottom and "View all" also.

Burr
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