MOI for Mac
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.13 
Thanks for the links.

I think you misunderstood my observation about Trim > they could all see and use it pretty easily when I showed it to them. I was making a comparison to Rhino> where there are so many tools (buttons) that they regularly can't find the one they are looking for by identifying the graphic/metaphor/label. By grouping the icons by function, and having far fewer of them, and probably having the context dialogs appear above the tool rather than in the command line, MOI is pretty easy to learn. That was what I meant to say there.

_PHIL
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.14 In reply to 169.11 
Hi Phil, thanks for sharing some details about your class, it is very interesting to me.

It sounds like a really fun class! I think that it's a great idea to switch between different software packages - I think that you're right that it should benefit them and increase their "learning flexibility".


> I do wish that we had tablets at every workstation,

Well that's ok - I mean it is not required that you only have to use a tablet with MoI.


> Anyway, I will try to get them to write some posts here later in the semester
> to give their overall impressions - but I think they like it.

That would be really cool, I would love to hear their feedback!

I've put a lot of effort into trying to make MoI easy to use, and in a lot of ways this type of student introduction course is kind of an "acid test" for how well that is working.

You're in a great position to notice if there are any recurring trends with confusion about particular areas. If you notice anything that seems to be a common problem, please let me know!


> Anyway more on how it's going later.

I'm looking forward to it!

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.15 In reply to 169.11 
> PS - are their bezier handles?

MoI doesn't have bezier handles - there is actually a problem with the bezier handle type drawing method, which I will try to explain here.

Here is a bezier handle style curve that I drew in Rhino V4:

You can see that the curve is broken up into 3 different sections according to where the handles were located.

The problem is that these sections share tangency, but not curvature. Curvature means how much the curve is bent at a particular point - each section is bent to a different degree at that point, creating a kind of break in curvature at that spot.

Rhino has a curvature graph tool that can help to visualize changes in curvature across a curve, here is what it looks like for that handle curve:



You can see at those points that the curvature does a jump there.

So what does this mean? Well, it doesn't really affect simple matte type shading very much, but it has a much bigger effect on reflections, including highlights.

Here is a rendering with highlights:

You can see that there is a kind of "bunching" effect where the highlight has become stacked up right at that curvature breaking spot. This type of bunching is common in many areas because you also get it on a circular fillet, but a lot of times for smooth curves you might be trying to get a fully smooth effect with them instead of the mechanical-fillet type appearance right in the middle of the curve.

So that's a problem.

Then on top of this, I personally don't quite like the bezier drawing technique too much where you kind of drag out a section and it bulges out a part of the curve behind it... It just doesn't feel quite so natural to me, although certainly the more that you use it the more you can get used to it.


I guess that the curvature break problem gets reduced quite a bit the more points you use in your curve - the more evenly the points are spaced with each other reduces the size of the breaks and they become less noticeable... But they are still there...

So that's why there aren't bezier handles in MoI.

These problems are not really as noticeable on just 2D illustration since you don't get reflections off of those types of shapes. But if you look closely at the shapes you can still often times see the breaks there too if there are a fewer number of points in the curve. I've always been a bit surprised that 2D illustration programs haven't switched to use NURBS instead of the traditional Bezier handles.

There are a lot of CAD programs that go ahead and offer bezier handle curves anyway in addition to the NURBS drawing tools... I suppose I could do that, but it just doesn't seem quite right.

- Michael

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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.16 In reply to 169.15 
I understand, thank you very much for the explanation. I've read InsideRhino3 - so I've been exposed to the definitions - but of course it only sinks in bit by bit:) Practically, in my work and teaching, the only reason I EVER use 'handlebars' or draw bezier curves in Rhino is because that is the drawing methodology in Illustrator - which I think it a really important tool for artists to know something about. So it's really just so they can relate from one app to another. But I can explain the difference when we get there...

PS - I found a way to run MOI in Parallels, see attached.

http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=8

So it looks like Parallels needs to either license this tech, allow users to buy it (instead of only allowing the demo with their dumb logo), or build one of their own.

Anyway, thanks!
Attachments:

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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.17 In reply to 169.16 
PS - it runs, but not super well. There are screen redraw and picking differences and weird artifacts. But it does work, so I guess we know it's possible:)

_PHIL
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.18 In reply to 169.16 
> PS - I found a way to run MOI in Parallels, see attached.

That's cool! But also kind of frustrating since they don't appear to offer it for individual sale. It looks like it is intended to be licensed for distribution with an existing product only?

Re: Bezier handles - yeah certainly it is the standard way for 2D illustration programs so definitely your students will benefit from knowing it, no doubt about that.

I guess that there are probably a lot of circumstances where the problems I mention above are not very pronounced - if you don't intend to make super-shiny things it is less of an issue. So it's not exactly that it has to be avoided at all costs...

But basically NURBS was invented precisely to solve this problem - so that you could have a longer curve made out of multiple points that didn't have this type of "curvature seam" at juncture points.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.19 In reply to 169.17 
> PS - it runs, but not super well. There are screen redraw and picking
> differences and weird artifacts. But it does work, so I guess we know
> it's possible:)

Sounds like Boot Camp is still the way to go for now at least.

Someday I would like to have a Mac version of MoI... But it will take quite a huge amount of work to do a proper Mac version. The amount of work kind of boggles the mind a bit, so that is quite a long ways off.

I was just thinking right now that a more practical solution would be to target running well under Parallels instead of fully Mac native. This would involve porting just the graphics portion to run with OpenGL instead of DirectX. Still quite a bit of work, but quite significantly less than a full port.

Although it looks like this may come with the next version of Parallels automatically - this blog post here:
http://parallelsvirtualization.blogspot.com/2006/08/wwdc-wrap-up-part-2-vmware-is-in.html mentions that they are working on DirectX 3D graphics hardware support for Parallels for the next release...

- Michael
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.20 In reply to 169.18 
>Re: Bezier handles - yeah certainly it is the standard way for 2D illustration programs so definitely your students will benefit from knowing it, no doubt about that.

>I guess that there are probably a lot of circumstances where the problems I mention above are not very pronounced - if you don't intend to make super-shiny things it is less of an >issue. So it's not exactly that it has to be avoided at all costs...

>But basically NURBS was invented precisely to solve this problem - so that you could have a longer curve made out of multiple points that didn't have this type of "curvature seam" at >juncture points.

Or, I suppose, if a rendering is not the ultimate destination. Though I personally would want my 3D prints, for instance, to be as smooth as is possible, so...

It is interesting that there is such a difference though - I naively always think about vector drawing as vector drawing - mainly as it compares to raster drawing. But I suppose that there are different qualities/types of mathematically based lines (in addition to the corresponding tools and techniques to make them) is something I should be appreciating more than I have been.

Thanks!

_PHIL
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.21 In reply to 169.19 
re: Mac version of MOI

I am really hoping that the Mac is soon coming to a point that it will be able to fairly simply run anything. It's certainly pretty close right now compared to a year ago.

We (the school where I teach) are moving to ALL Mac laptops in the Fall, getting rid of all of our lab computers. Even the programs (like Metals/Jewelry Design) that are currently Win-based. All the Faculty just got new MacBooks and MacBookPros. So this is a burning issue to all of us right now. But one that I am really confident will work itself out. I think there is a chance that some of us will just change to Mac based software, but it will take at least a year or two of working in BootCamp while everyone adjusts. And it really depends on where Mac virtualization goes.

Excellent. I finally booted into BootCamp for the first time in over a month I think (I am almost all Parallels at this point) to work in MOI last night, of course it runs great. So that'll do for us, esp since we will not be giving up Rhino until things like TechGems and Flamingo exist for MOI:) But we will certainly use it in any way we can as long as we can afford to when you release it!

_PHIL
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
169.22 In reply to 169.20 
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.23 In reply to 169.21 
> But we will certainly use it in any way we can as long
> as we can afford to when you release it!

I think that I'll be doing a special program for schools, so I don't think that this will be a problem for you.

- Michael
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.24 In reply to 169.23 
I assumed so, thanks!

_PHIL

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p h i l l i p c a r r i z z i
Assistant Professor, Chair
Allesee Metals/Jewelry Design Program
Kendall College of Art and Design
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www.carrizzi.com
www.cadlaboration.com
jewelry.kcad.edu

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