MOI for Mac  1-20  21-24

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 From:  carlos (CARLOSREGO)
169.1 
I just discover your software and it really looks very promising.
Do you plan to release a version of MOI for Macintosh?

Best regards,

Carlos
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.2 In reply to 169.1 
Hi Carlos, unfortunately I do not plan to release a Mac version anytime soon.

I wish that I could, but I just don't have enough time or resources available to work on more than one version right now. At some point in the future I would like to try it but it is going to be quite a while before that is possible.

Sorry,

- Michael
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 From:  carlos (CARLOSREGO)
169.3 In reply to 169.2 
I'm sad to know it...

As you might know the Mac platform is traditionaly the platform of choice for many designers.
Hope to see a version of your software on Mac in a near future.
Many new design software that was recently released is seeing a Mac version as an advantage over competition.
Best regards,

Carlos
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.4 In reply to 169.3 
Hi Carlos, I definitely agree that it would be an advantage, and that the Mac is popular with designers, and that it would be a good fit for the product.

But it is just simply not feasible right now, I just do not have any time to work on it...

- Michael
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 From:  carlos (CARLOSREGO)
169.5 In reply to 169.4 
Hi Michael,

I wish you all the success with MOI.
Even if it will not be available for the Mac, I think that's very positive to see refreshing new projects such as yours emerging and chaking the CAD market.
I hope you have such a huge success that (as opposite to what Rhino makers do) you find resources to port MOI to Mac.

Best regards,

Carlos
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 From:  Crusoe the Painter (CRUSOE)
169.6 In reply to 169.5 
I know this gonna sound really dumb, but you do have multiple options for running moi.

1) Use Parallels desktop, if you're running a intel mac.
2) Buy a pc, they're cheap enough. Even my somewhat underpowered PC has no problem running MOI.
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 From:  anna75 (LTUCK75)
169.7 
Hi! Dumb question for you. I'm running an intel imac-maxed out on everything ,memory, video card etc.
What is Parallel desktop? I'd like to try this out as I'm getting ready to buy zbrush-noticed you're a member over there and will certainly bombard you with silly questions in the future no doubt...lol) Work doing paintings, illustration and product design in PSCS2, AICS2 etc. but haven't had the time to learn a 3d package and would like to.

Thanks!
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.8 In reply to 169.7 
Hi Anna, I think you were asking Crusoe this question, but I'm not sure that he checks in here too often so I will give you a quick answer.

> What is Parallel desktop?

Parallels Desktop (http://www.parallels.com/en/products/workstation/mac/) is a program that lets your Mac run Windows programs directly. There have been other mechanisms to do this in the past, but Parallels uses a newer method that runs much more transparently and faster than previous mechanisms.

However, the one area that can still tend to be a problem is 3D graphics support, I'm not sure how well Parallels handles this, possibly not too well.

If that's the case, then there is another option for you to run Windows software on your intel imac, called "Boot camp" (http://www.apple.com/macosx/bootcamp/). This allows you to just run Windows directly on your Intel Mac hardware, not using any kind of emulation layer at all. So that will definitely work fine.

- Michael
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.9 
Hi All!

I am a jewelry designer, been using (and teaching) Rhino for about 3 years or so. I have started using and teaching some MOI as an introduction (at this point) to computer drawing and modeling concepts to sophomores - to kind of ease them into the Rhino interface/concepts they are about to get themselves into. Anyway...

I have been presenting from my MacBook Pro laptop running the newest version of Parallels - and I am getting a strange error when I launch MOI: Unable to Create DirectX3D Device. Just curious if this is a Parallels issue, and/or if there is anything I can do to make MOI snap into shape?

I LOVE MOI by the way - it seems like it has a great future. Thank you.

_PHIL

______________________________
p h i l l i p c a r r i z z i
Assistant Professor, Chair
Allesee Metals/Jewelry Design Program
Kendall College of Art and Design
__________________________
www.carrizzi.com
www.cadlaboration.com
www.digfablab.com
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.10 In reply to 169.9 
Hi Phil, I'm glad that you like MoI! I think it's a great idea to use it as an introduction.

re: Parallels - Unfortunately one big area which Parallels doesn't provide for is access to the video card through the Windows Direct3D interface, which MoI uses for its display. You'd see the same problem with a lot of 3D video games as well. So unfortunately that's not going to work.

Parallels works great for more general-purpose software that doesn't need to access any special hardware capabilities. I guess it probably also works (although at greatly reduced speed) for OpenGL-based programs since OpenGL can function just with a software renderer instead of absolutely requiring hardware acceleration. Direct3D is not like that, it doesn't have an alternative software-only renderer built into it.

So to run MoI on your Mac you will have to boot to Windows using Boot Camp.

I'd be very interested to know how MoI works for you in your class!

- Michael
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.11 In reply to 169.10 
Understood, thank you. I will rock it in Bootcamp then. - or just demo it on my instructor workstation.

re: how it is going so far and a little bit more about the strategy:

The "computer" courses I teach are CAD/CAM for Metals/Jewelry Design and Digital Fabrication (which is kind of a CAD course for sculpture and non-jewelry 3D majors at the college that I developed). And I have always had a desire, and I think there is a need, to have them function as "intro to computer" courses or more to the point "intro to using the computer as a creative platform" courses for all of these students. Some of them need this, badly, and of course some don't.

Anyway, I used to start with Illustrator, teachining essentially drawing, (where we would deal with output such as photo-etching, laser cutting, waterjet, wire EDM etc through DWG exports) then move into 2.5D with ArtCam (and deal with CNC maching output), and then spend a little less that half the class in Rhino (and 3D printing of various sorts). Which is a little much of course, but I only have a semester in which to concentrate on these things.

So, instead of trying scale back what we are doing, I have decided this semester to do add more software, but have them switch back and forth all semester long. We are going to concentrate on Curves and Drawing, then Surfaces and Basic Modeling, then Solids and Advanced Modeling. And we are going to switch between pieces of software multiple times in each area. The goal is to get them comfortable with the basic idea of drawing, for instance, in vectors/curves on a computer; so they will practice how this is enabled in different packages. I am hoping this variety makes them more flexible/quicker learners if they decide (or need or want) to switch software packages for any reason.

So we started the week with the history of hardware and software concepts in computing, as well as some reading on the history of CAD etc. And then they started drawing in MOI. Next week they will draw, similar things and then more advanced things, in Sketchup, Illustrator, and Rhino - at least. The next week, while they are drawing an "original" sample in the software of their choice, I will show and talk about the output techniques. And we will repeat that with more difficult modelling concepts until they begin their final 3D work, again in the software(s) of their choice. And I am hoping/encouraging that they will be moving projects from one piece of software to another, using each for their skill in it or it's particular toolset which matches their idea.

They seemed to really like using MOI. I had far far fewer questions about "where is the trim command?" etc. I do wish that we had tablets at every workstation, but we do have enough in the library across the hall that I will have them check-out soon, and we have one Cintiq monitor that 1 student at a time can take advantage of. I think a few of them who already started learning Rhino on their own miss the command line, but most of them sure don't. Anyway, I will try to get them to write some posts here later in the semester to give their overall impressions - but I think they like it. It's actually easier to draw in than Illustrator - which is saying something. PS - are their bezier handles? Anyway more on how it's going later.

The software we will/will try to teach, learn, and use this semester include:
Rhino
SharpConstruct (I want to teach Zbrush, but there just isn't the budget for it, so opensource is nice)
SketchUp
MOI
ArtCam
Illustrator
And of course a touch of Photoshop to tweak the Flamingo Renderings

We'll see...

_PHIL
jewelry.kcad.edu
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
169.12 In reply to 169.11 

look this thread who expain why there is no Bezier curves (& handles) in moi :)
http://moi3d.com/forum/index.php?webtag=MOI&msg=290.1


The trim command is Menu / Edit / Trim
This function Trim can also make the function "Projection" till the next release !
http://moi3d.com/forum/messages.php?webtag=MOI&msg=286.1

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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.13 
Thanks for the links.

I think you misunderstood my observation about Trim > they could all see and use it pretty easily when I showed it to them. I was making a comparison to Rhino> where there are so many tools (buttons) that they regularly can't find the one they are looking for by identifying the graphic/metaphor/label. By grouping the icons by function, and having far fewer of them, and probably having the context dialogs appear above the tool rather than in the command line, MOI is pretty easy to learn. That was what I meant to say there.

_PHIL
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.14 In reply to 169.11 
Hi Phil, thanks for sharing some details about your class, it is very interesting to me.

It sounds like a really fun class! I think that it's a great idea to switch between different software packages - I think that you're right that it should benefit them and increase their "learning flexibility".


> I do wish that we had tablets at every workstation,

Well that's ok - I mean it is not required that you only have to use a tablet with MoI.


> Anyway, I will try to get them to write some posts here later in the semester
> to give their overall impressions - but I think they like it.

That would be really cool, I would love to hear their feedback!

I've put a lot of effort into trying to make MoI easy to use, and in a lot of ways this type of student introduction course is kind of an "acid test" for how well that is working.

You're in a great position to notice if there are any recurring trends with confusion about particular areas. If you notice anything that seems to be a common problem, please let me know!


> Anyway more on how it's going later.

I'm looking forward to it!

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.15 In reply to 169.11 
> PS - are their bezier handles?

MoI doesn't have bezier handles - there is actually a problem with the bezier handle type drawing method, which I will try to explain here.

Here is a bezier handle style curve that I drew in Rhino V4:

You can see that the curve is broken up into 3 different sections according to where the handles were located.

The problem is that these sections share tangency, but not curvature. Curvature means how much the curve is bent at a particular point - each section is bent to a different degree at that point, creating a kind of break in curvature at that spot.

Rhino has a curvature graph tool that can help to visualize changes in curvature across a curve, here is what it looks like for that handle curve:



You can see at those points that the curvature does a jump there.

So what does this mean? Well, it doesn't really affect simple matte type shading very much, but it has a much bigger effect on reflections, including highlights.

Here is a rendering with highlights:

You can see that there is a kind of "bunching" effect where the highlight has become stacked up right at that curvature breaking spot. This type of bunching is common in many areas because you also get it on a circular fillet, but a lot of times for smooth curves you might be trying to get a fully smooth effect with them instead of the mechanical-fillet type appearance right in the middle of the curve.

So that's a problem.

Then on top of this, I personally don't quite like the bezier drawing technique too much where you kind of drag out a section and it bulges out a part of the curve behind it... It just doesn't feel quite so natural to me, although certainly the more that you use it the more you can get used to it.


I guess that the curvature break problem gets reduced quite a bit the more points you use in your curve - the more evenly the points are spaced with each other reduces the size of the breaks and they become less noticeable... But they are still there...

So that's why there aren't bezier handles in MoI.

These problems are not really as noticeable on just 2D illustration since you don't get reflections off of those types of shapes. But if you look closely at the shapes you can still often times see the breaks there too if there are a fewer number of points in the curve. I've always been a bit surprised that 2D illustration programs haven't switched to use NURBS instead of the traditional Bezier handles.

There are a lot of CAD programs that go ahead and offer bezier handle curves anyway in addition to the NURBS drawing tools... I suppose I could do that, but it just doesn't seem quite right.

- Michael

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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.16 In reply to 169.15 
I understand, thank you very much for the explanation. I've read InsideRhino3 - so I've been exposed to the definitions - but of course it only sinks in bit by bit:) Practically, in my work and teaching, the only reason I EVER use 'handlebars' or draw bezier curves in Rhino is because that is the drawing methodology in Illustrator - which I think it a really important tool for artists to know something about. So it's really just so they can relate from one app to another. But I can explain the difference when we get there...

PS - I found a way to run MOI in Parallels, see attached.

http://www.transgaming.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&file=index&func=display&ceid=8

So it looks like Parallels needs to either license this tech, allow users to buy it (instead of only allowing the demo with their dumb logo), or build one of their own.

Anyway, thanks!
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.17 In reply to 169.16 
PS - it runs, but not super well. There are screen redraw and picking differences and weird artifacts. But it does work, so I guess we know it's possible:)

_PHIL
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.18 In reply to 169.16 
> PS - I found a way to run MOI in Parallels, see attached.

That's cool! But also kind of frustrating since they don't appear to offer it for individual sale. It looks like it is intended to be licensed for distribution with an existing product only?

Re: Bezier handles - yeah certainly it is the standard way for 2D illustration programs so definitely your students will benefit from knowing it, no doubt about that.

I guess that there are probably a lot of circumstances where the problems I mention above are not very pronounced - if you don't intend to make super-shiny things it is less of an issue. So it's not exactly that it has to be avoided at all costs...

But basically NURBS was invented precisely to solve this problem - so that you could have a longer curve made out of multiple points that didn't have this type of "curvature seam" at juncture points.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
169.19 In reply to 169.17 
> PS - it runs, but not super well. There are screen redraw and picking
> differences and weird artifacts. But it does work, so I guess we know
> it's possible:)

Sounds like Boot Camp is still the way to go for now at least.

Someday I would like to have a Mac version of MoI... But it will take quite a huge amount of work to do a proper Mac version. The amount of work kind of boggles the mind a bit, so that is quite a long ways off.

I was just thinking right now that a more practical solution would be to target running well under Parallels instead of fully Mac native. This would involve porting just the graphics portion to run with OpenGL instead of DirectX. Still quite a bit of work, but quite significantly less than a full port.

Although it looks like this may come with the next version of Parallels automatically - this blog post here:
http://parallelsvirtualization.blogspot.com/2006/08/wwdc-wrap-up-part-2-vmware-is-in.html mentions that they are working on DirectX 3D graphics hardware support for Parallels for the next release...

- Michael
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 From:  philcarrizzi
169.20 In reply to 169.18 
>Re: Bezier handles - yeah certainly it is the standard way for 2D illustration programs so definitely your students will benefit from knowing it, no doubt about that.

>I guess that there are probably a lot of circumstances where the problems I mention above are not very pronounced - if you don't intend to make super-shiny things it is less of an >issue. So it's not exactly that it has to be avoided at all costs...

>But basically NURBS was invented precisely to solve this problem - so that you could have a longer curve made out of multiple points that didn't have this type of "curvature seam" at >juncture points.

Or, I suppose, if a rendering is not the ultimate destination. Though I personally would want my 3D prints, for instance, to be as smooth as is possible, so...

It is interesting that there is such a difference though - I naively always think about vector drawing as vector drawing - mainly as it compares to raster drawing. But I suppose that there are different qualities/types of mathematically based lines (in addition to the corresponding tools and techniques to make them) is something I should be appreciating more than I have been.

Thanks!

_PHIL
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