NGon WIP
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 From:  Michael Gibson 11 Oct 2006  (1 of 103) 
162.1 
I've been experimenting with some additional meshing ideas.

This still needs a fair amount of work to finish up, but this method generates 100% ngons and quads, no connecting triangles at all.

Let me know if this would be useful.

Here is an example: (.obj and .3dm also attached)



- Michael

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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 11 Oct 2006  (2 of 103) 
162.2 In reply to 162.1 

Your Obj seems works fine, in Silo too !
Kerkythea too (smart free standalone renderer) too)http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~jpanta/Graphics/Kerkythea/
And definitly strange with only Wings3D??? (here alll parts of your Boolean difference)
Maybe you must contact some coders of it ?

In the 3dm file is that normal?

EDITED: 11 Oct 2006 by PILOU
Attachments:
Attachmentartfact.jpg
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 11 Oct 2006  (3 of 103) 
162.3 In reply to 162.1 

From Steph
Some people are rejected with nurbs (from Rhino or other) ---> poly : objects too "heavy", impossible to modify etc...
Useful for work in real 3D or Poly + UV
and for numerous architects who use C4D
So YES it's very useful, so keep the good work Michael :)

EDITED: 11 Oct 2006 by PILOU
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 From:  Michael Gibson 11 Oct 2006  (4 of 103) 
162.4 In reply to 162.2 
> In the 3dm file is that normal?

Yup, that was constructed by a boolean with a cylinder - those edges are where the seam edge of the cylinder happened to be, where the tube surface of the cylinder was closed.

Those could have been removed by rotating the cylinder so the seam was away from that area, before doing the boolean.

- Michael
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 From:  Kreten 12 Oct 2006  (5 of 103) 
162.5 In reply to 162.4 

Helo Michael!
Im new to the forum.
I saw your picture Ngon at Rhinos forum and Wow!
So your saying that you made torus, bollen difference with cylinder, got the shape and then just used meshing tool to produce this kind of a mesh with no triangles?
I do a lot of transforming from NURBS to DXF. I manage to do it, but yes its time consuming. But this way :-)

I saw MoI is in beta, what are your plans with it?
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 From:  Michael Gibson 12 Oct 2006  (6 of 103) 
162.6 In reply to 162.5 

> So your saying that you made torus, bollen difference with cylinder, got
> the shape and then just used meshing tool to produce this kind of a
> mesh with no triangles?

Yes, that's correct. I just created the shape using booleans, then just saved to .obj format to generate this mesh.

But this was using my own Work-In-Progress build, it is not available in the beta yet, this was just a preview of what is coming up. I'm still working on some pieces of this technology, it will probably be at least another week or so (possibly 2) before it is ready to go.

For it to work properly, whatever software you're importing the mesh into needs to support n-sided polygons. But quite a lot of modern polygon-oriented software does support n-gons now.

The results are quite striking, the resulting mesh is incredibly clean and clear even at trims and intersections from booleans...


> I saw MoI is in beta, what are your plans with it?

Well, the short range plan is to finish up enough stuff so that it will be a V1 release instead of a beta! :)

- Michael
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 From:  Kreten 12 Oct 2006  (7 of 103) 
162.7 
Michel if you want I can give you few egsamples of how the meshing would be optimized and clean for certain objects.
As I said I transform all of my work to dxf. meshes, so usualy I manuly model/transform my meshes to as possible more cleaner optimized look:-)
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 From:  Michael Gibson 12 Oct 2006  (8 of 103) 
162.8 In reply to 162.7 
> Michel if you want I can give you few egsamples of how the meshing would be
> optimized and clean for certain objects.

Yes, that would be very useful, thanks!

- Michael
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 From:  Kreten 12 Oct 2006  (9 of 103) 
162.9 In reply to 162.8 
Should I post images here?
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 From:  Michael Gibson 12 Oct 2006  (10 of 103) 
162.10 In reply to 162.9 
> Should I post images here?

Sure! Also if you have the original source .3dm file for any of the images that you post, please post them as well, those would help me in testing and comparing the new mesh output to your optimizations.

- Michael
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 From:  Schbeurd 12 Oct 2006  (11 of 103) 
162.11 In reply to 162.1 
> This still needs a fair amount of work to finish up, but this method generates 100% ngons and quads, no connecting triangles at all.
> Let me know if this would be useful.

Yes, very useful indeed.
Is an extra option (only quads) realistic ? I've no idea if this would be possible. I think it could be useful for further mesh deformation in other programs or for animation...

@ Frenchy Pilou :
It seems that the OBJ import of Wings3D is not the best available.
I've had problems in the past with OBJ files created in other programs and imported into Wings. In my opinion, it's probably not the best tool to validate the test files sent by Michael... ;-)
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 From:  Michael Gibson 12 Oct 2006  (12 of 103) 
162.12 In reply to 162.11 
> Is an extra option (only quads) realistic ? I've no idea if this
> would be possible. I think it could be useful for further mesh
> deformation in other programs or for animation...

I don't think it is really feasible to get only quads and not ngons along trimmed areas.

I guess I can possibly imagine breaking things into a bunch of little slivery quads, but I think that would probably be about as bad as a bunch of triangles.

The underlying surfaces naturally decompose to quads, but this is interrupted where there are trim curves on the surface. There just isn't a way to get just simple quads when you've got a complex trim cutting into a quad... But ngons do work in these situations, because an ngon can hold the complex trim in one nice piece.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 12 Oct 2006  (13 of 103) 
162.13 In reply to 162.11 

@Schbeurd
yes Wings3D seems capricious with import OBJ :(
It's a pity and curious because some people use it, surely a little vicious bug somewhere :)
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 From:  Linker (KJELLO) 12 Oct 2006  (14 of 103) 
162.14 In reply to 162.12 
Npower Software's PowerBooleans plug-in for Max does a very nice job of generating quads from complex boolean operations similar as with trims and fillets. I have no idea how this is done algorithmically, but I found this promo page at turbo-squid: http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/228190 (Login is required for the promo PDF) and this page at npower: http://npowersoftware.com/booleans/pboverview.htm (Bottom pic shows off quad boolean)
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 From:  jbshorty 13 Oct 2006  (15 of 103) 
162.15 
That Power Booleans example is a relatively easy one. I would be curious to see how it handles something more complex than a cylinder booleaned from a box. Is there any known examples? That could be interesting to see...
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 From:  Kreten 13 Oct 2006  (16 of 103) 
162.16 
PowerBole. yes its for max but no for Rhino, and I think we wonts see Rhino plugin soon...Ill put my hope i MoI!
Ill come back tonight with images:-)
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 From:  Michael Gibson 13 Oct 2006  (17 of 103) 
162.17 In reply to 162.14 
> Npower Software's PowerBooleans plug-in for Max does a very nice
> job of generating quads from complex boolean operations similar as with
> trims and fillets.

Hi Linker - this is part of the geometry library that I'm using so this mechanism is available to me. (However note that PowerBoolean plug-in that you reference handles booleans in Max between polygonal objects, not NURBS objects).

But I guess implicit in when I said earlier that it wasn't feasible, was that it wasn't feasible to do with only using the minimal number of vertices that defined the outer boundary of the ngon, without adding a whole bunch more vertices in internal to the face.

The Npower mechanism adds numerous interior vertices. You don't end up with slivery quads, but you do end up with a large quantity of small ones.

I guess it would be possible to add this mechanism in, but it doesn't appear to work on NURBS "out of the box", so it would take some effort to integrate it and I don't think that it is really the type of minimal vertex result that people seem to be desiring most. So at the moment I'm not really thinking of pursuing it, I'm focusing instead on the ngon stuff.

- Michael
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU) 13 Oct 2006  (18 of 103) 
162.18 
Test object By Steph :)
http://annur.free.fr/MoI/PolyNightmareTest.zip
Good luck Michael !
The image :)
Ps With the actual obj export : in spite of triangles, object is some light in numbers of polygons and especially "without problem of rendering"!

EDITED: 13 Oct 2006 by PILOU
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 From:  Michael Gibson 13 Oct 2006  (19 of 103) 
162.19 In reply to 162.18 
It's a great model to test with, thanks!

I've attached the output of my current ngon work. There are still several issues that I'm working on.

- Michael

EDITED: 25 Aug 2008 by MICHAEL GIBSON
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 From:  Kreten 13 Oct 2006  (20 of 103) 
162.20 
Michael here are the few simple egsamples of optimized meshing.
Simple cube, filleted, hole...
I saw guys posted more complexed object earlier so I dont know if these will do anything...
As simple they are I think the idea is clear!
If you want something more no problem!
Attachments:
Attachmentcube eg.jpg
Attachmentcube.3dm
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