Wow !! top mod model export as obj, then convert into t-spline and finally exported in MoI.
Having some trouble with booleans>merge to slice the model ... however it was easy to trim il by hand and doing some cool fillet :)

Incredible modeling perspective for me, but a little bit to much expensive :'(

And here's a model coming with modo :)
So cool :)

Having a patch modeling toolset is not a "bad" idea. But honestly if you are hoping to make something which handles organic modeling better than subd, i don't think you will achieve it just by using patches. It needs to be something more sophisticated than that if you are to overcome the limitations of working in Nurbs. TSplines is a huge improvement for organic Nurbs, and the poly-Nurbs conversion is awesome. I've used it on a few projects that we are now in process of making the injection moulds. But admittedly there is no modeling toolset (coming in version 2!) which compares to the ease and speed of using subd. However TS for Rhino does have a very nice tool (called tsSkin) that allows the input of a minimal set of curves and can output a smoothed solid model from it. you can define very complex forms with very few Nurbs curves. It's a fresh approach to Nurbs modeling. And i think new concepts like this are needed to make Nurbs a viable organic modeling solution...

jonah

Hi jonah,

>> i don't think you will achieve it just by using patches.

Now I'm confused, what method was this Jinwoo dude using, is'nt it Nurbs patches ?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=307349

Cheers
Danny

Hi PaQ,

> And here's a model coming with modo :)

That one is particularly cool!

You can see that this method has a lot of potential for certain kinds of models where you have some organic / mechanical pieces that need to interact more directly. For example if you needed a face like object that had 100 circular holes drilled in it. Do the face in SubD, bring it over as a NURBS model and drill the holes using NURBS.

However, a lot of times the combination of organic + mechanical is not quite so totally mixed in one single piece like that, like the horse and helmet that you showed earlier seemed like they would work ok with just doing each as separate pieces (organic and mechanical). That seems to be more common.

- Michael

A certain program called 'Animation Master' by Hash Inc., has been doing patch-based modeling from it's inception. A:M uses a patch modeling method that's more akin to Bezier curves than NURBs. Mathematically, they are related since B-Splines are just a generalization of a Bezier curves but the differences presents itself in how we interact with/manipulate them.

The following are links to organic models created with A:M and while they are far from the quality seen in Jinwoo Lee's works, these are done (mostly) by non-professionals and some are actually quite good (note links tagged with a WARNING):


http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=197
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=202
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=229 (WARNING)
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=233
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=231
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=232
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=241
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=250
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=251
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=311
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=365
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=369
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=394 (WARNING)
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=422
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=522
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=592 (WARNING)
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=601 (WARNING)
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=649
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=831
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=888
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=888
http://www.hash.com/stills/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=931


A modeller named Teyon (Alexander) used to do a lot of organic modeling using Rhino. Nowadays, he prefers to use Silo but samples of his earlier work still exists out on the Web - I suggest using Google to find some of his earlier (NURBS-based) work. At one point, Teyon even discussed his workflow and I remember being shocked at the limited number of commands (from Rhino) that he uses to get the results he was getting.

Hi Danny,

> Now I'm confused, what method was this Jinwoo dude
> using, is'nt it Nurbs patches ?

Well, the final output is NURBS patches, but he never goes into very much detail about the specific methods used during modeling.

I had previously assumed that the T-splines plugin for Maya was used for that, but I guess that was not the case. Maya actually natively has some SubD to NURBS conversion capabilities within it as well, for some reason they are not very well known or widely used though.

I think there is a lot of control point manipulation of single patches there, for example in this post:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3192749&postcount=105

> I made type c with just One patch <....>

> <..> Nowadays I mostly use type C because its light and efficient I guess. <...>


So for example that one type of ear is made up of a single surface that probably was deformed by moving its control points around. That's kind of an older style organic modeling workflow that people used before SubD was available when it was difficult to make curved objects out of polygons. NURBS modeling used to be the leading technique for character modeling back then.


So with this kind of thing you're usually looking at the result of a lot of very particular adjustments to control points to sculpt the shape how you want it.

It takes a pretty large amount of time to get enough practice to understand how the resulting surface is going to behave when you move points in a particular way.

SubD tends to be more flexible for this type of thing since it is easier to insert more points into just one spot instead of always having a uniform grid of points like a NURBS surface always has.

- Michael

Just keep in mind - the main ingredient for producing any of these kinds of really cool detailed organic models is a very high level of skill and fluency on the part of the artist.

It involves the artist spending many many many hours often over the course of many years perfecting their technique so that they gain an intimate understanding of how to adjust points in 3D in subtle ways to get the results they want.

Do not make the mistake of thinking that any of these things are "easy" !

- Michael

Hi Michael,

I 'C' and ear you :)

>> Do not make the mistake of thinking that any of these things are "easy" !

I realised this when I surfed around on this subject, plus I think if it was easy you need to have that artistic flair like a sculptor with clay.
We can all get our hands on some clay which will form in any shape you desire but to turn it into art you just have to have that gift.
Thanks for the clarification.

Hi Ambi,

Thanks for the links, and you know that most males still have that 'little boy' tendencies to push the button that says WARNING on them, first ;)
The Manga style is what I'm interested in and I think ? this is achievable in MoI, I've started something along these lines but just need more time and
study as my career involves mainly mechanical parts.
That's part of the reason for the NPR thread. http://moi3d.com/forum/messages.php?webtag=MOI&msg=1553.1

Cheers
Danny

Too bad Tsplines won't see wide adoption as a Subd-NURBS bridge until the patent expires in 17 years. Otherwise, expensive software is the only option...

Hi Danny. What i said was "if you are hoping to make something which handles organic modeling better than subd, i don't think you will achieve it just by using patches". My point isn't that it's not possible, but that there are better and faster ways to get it done. It is impressive that he used Nurbs, but did it result in a "better" model because he spent the extra labor to do it that way? And now with T-Splines it really becomes irrelevant because you can convert the subd model to Nurbs patches... And better solutions will just keep on comng in the future...

jonah

Hi Danny,

> I realised this when I surfed around on this subject, plus I
> think if it was easy you need to have that artistic flair like
> a sculptor with clay.

Yeah, I think that there is a need for a lot of the same kind of sense of proportion that a good sculptor would have.

But in addition to that, it is kind of its own medium which although similar in some ways is not exactly the same as working in clay. I mean after all you normally work on the computer with a mouse and you don't normally work on clay with a mouse.... :)

So you have to spend a lot of time becoming familiar with the medium itself and learning how it behaves in response to your actions, stuff like that.

On top of that kind of many many hours of experience in the medium, it helps if you study different modeling strategies. There are different ways to manage the organic construction process and since you are dealing with a kind of big sea of points, it becomes pretty important to have a pretty detailed management process that helps keep things organized.

That's a lot of skills that need to be developed that are equally important (well, probably much more important) as the tools.


There is a new type of organic modeling based on brush-stroke type painting which now seems like it may be coming more to the forefront, stuff like ZBrush, Mudbox, and 3D Coat are focused on this different style. It seems like this area has some promise to be an easier to use medium so that it might not require quite as high of a specialized skill training and experience level as subd point manipulation does...

- Michael

Hi Michael,

>>it is kind of its own medium which although similar in some ways is not exactly the same as working in clay. I mean after all you normally work on the computer with a mouse and you don't normally work on clay with a mouse.... :)

I disagree, the mouse and the application (MoI) are your tools, of course clay you can use your hands to feel,
but you also have your sculpting tools, in painting you have your brushes (the mouse) and your palette of paint( the software toolset) I think these are very alike it's just that computer art is frowned upon by purist.
I'm sure back in what ever BC (now BCE) someone used a medium for their art piece for the first time and everyone in the art world would of said , WHAT THE ! and down the track is accepted as art.

just my point of view.

mmm.....what shall I sculpt next with MoI ;)

Cheers
Danny

Hi jonah,

>>And better solutions will just keep on comng in the future............No doubt.

Just asked the question because I'm no expert on organic modeling, the only organic modeling tools I've delt with is what's available from the high end engineering apps and they are highly accurate NURBS surfaces that are produce in microns and no way I could use these apps to produce a sculptured head without some stupid criptic error message popping up.

Cheers
Danny

Hi Danny, well there are more subtle differences as well - for example in SubD modeling you don't push or pull directly on a surface like you would do with clay, you control a point cage and the surface created from that point cage is kind of shrunken and smoothed down from it.

It is a particular mechanism which works somewhat differently from clay.

Let me put it this way - an expert clay sculptor is not going to be able to sit down with a subd modeler and right away produce models with it the same as their clay sculptures. There will be a bunch of their skills on proportion and form that will certainly come over, but the medium and details of how you interact with it follows different rules in the specifics.

The subd artist needs to worry about topology, edge loops, arrangement and spacing of individual points in 3D space, these are a lot of things that don't really have a similarity in clay sculpting.

I mean don't get me wrong, I am not in any way meaning to say that the results of subd modeling are not art, just that it takes time and experience with them to really become productive and able to produce very refined and detailed shapes with them.

- Michael

Hi Michael, I agree with the differences but you are comparing two different mediums, like sculpting compared to painting, both are art but different mediums.

Thanks anyway, I've learnt alot from this thread and know what direction I want to go with my hobby.

Cheers
Danny

Ok, this is my hour attempt.
I thought I'd start with a 10cmX10cm surface produced by freeform curve using control points at 1cm increments.


Then created a network surface using these curves.
I have a question about this surface, when I produced it I could see little white flicks through it, is this normal, is it the graphics or is this surface not a good surface, I have no analysis tools at the moment to check it.
on the other hand it did trim and join ok.


Then all I did was push 'n' pull the control points to produce this nose, it was quite entertaining and educational. added some nostrils and you have a basic shnoz.



I think with a little more refinement of the mesh and finer control points you could probably get more detail, but as you said Michael it is hard work.

Cheers
Danny

The grid with control points reminds me of those Pin Pression toys - "Press the Pin Pression to any object to instantly create that image in 3-D"



Ed

Hi Danny,

> Hi Michael, I agree with the differences but you are comparing
> two different mediums, like sculpting compared to painting,
> both are art but different mediums.

Yup, no disagreement here.

I guess the problem that I am trying to emphasize is that some mediums are more temperamental and just difficult to work with than others. That does not mean it is not a good medium, but it does mean that a fair amount of time is required to become accustomed and skilled at working in it.

I've noticed a general trend over the past several years that the ease of use of subd as a medium has become quite exaggerated. People who have spent a lot of time getting accustomed to it can make it look easy, but you're not seeing all the hours and hours (and years and years) they have spent building up their skills.

Similarly you can use NURBS modeling for doing faces like the Jinwoo Lee stuff you linked to and were asking about. However, that's an even more temperamental medium for doing that kind of work than subd is, so it takes an even greater amount of time to become fluent and productive at doing that. That's why it is not commonly done these days, not because it is not possible but because it is a more time consuming road to take.

- Michael

Hi Michael,

And just to confuse things even that bit more, you've got SensAble's FreeForm & ClayTools.
http://www.sensable.com/products-freeform-systems.htm

One of the Members on 3dcadjewelry Forum has FreeForm & a couple of others have ClayTools & they've done some really great work with it .
Here's one site with some examples.
http://www.harryhamilldesigns.com/Portrait.html

It really seems like the answer for those wanting something like a NURBS type "Organic Sculpturing".
But from what I understand, unfortunately it's very expensive & the system requirements are very specific.

regards Colin