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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.61 In reply to 1571.57 
Hi Dan,

> Quick video example of Illustrator origin movement for rotation & scale.

Yup, but in the example there you show the dedicated scale and rotate tools in Illustrator. That's an extra step (trip to the toolbar) to go into those special modes.

In MoI the equivalent of those are the Transform/Rotate and Transform/Scale commands.

What I'm trying to work on here is an editing frame that is always available right as soon as you select objects, you don't have to go to a special mode to use them. This is more similar to the bounding box frame that you get in Illustrator when you are using the Selection (arrow) tool. In Illustrator, scaling by using the bounding box inside the selection tool does not allow you to place an origin point.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.62 In reply to 1571.59 
Hi Will,

> Yes, it was already determined that Illy uses a seperate
> command for the rotate etc., not all graphics apps do that however...

Actually, Illustrator does allow for scaling and rotating from selection mode without using those special tools. But the dedicated tools allow setting the origin point which you can't do using the quick bounding box grips.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.63 In reply to 1571.56 
Hi Will,

> and I'm used to a pivot being an option there (I'm a
> Fireworks and CorelDraw user...)

I was testing CorelDraw over here, and I can see how you can move the rotation pivot when you flip the grips into being rotation style grips, but I can't find any way to change the scaling origin when scaling using the bounding frame.

I'm using CorelDraw 12 - is this something that was added in a newer version?


> In other words, perhaps support a minimal amount of 2D drawing as well?

Yup, I would like to do this. But progress towards that will kind of happen in a few bits and pieces over time. This editing frame is one bit - then being able to set color and line width/style would be another step.

It probably won't ever have a complete toolset (with a full gradient editor, etc...) but I think it will end up being able to do some basic stuff.

Currently MoI is only focused on geometry design. In the future I generally expect to add what I call "communication" type features that help you show your design to other people, that will include some stuff like rendering, annotation, dimensions, line styles, etc.. so that's generally where this would fit in.

- Michael
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 From:  danperk (SBEECH)
1571.64 In reply to 1571.63 
Hi Michael,

Actually you can spec. pivot point in Illustrator with a bounding box, limitation is it's only to the 9 presets
shown in short video attached.


I see your point about making this as simple to use as possible but even with the bounding box in Illustrator
it doesn't take long to out-grow it's usefullness when working on anything but simple tasks.

I know you will come up with something great, I'm just putting in my 2 cents.
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 From:  Marc (TELLIER)
1571.65 In reply to 1571.63 
""annotation, dimensions, line styles, etc.. ""

Yes Please!!!


The selection frame tool look interesting.

I also think that an anchor point would be great for quick adjustments, but in the same time I imagine that it could be difficult to integrate in a simple and non-obstructive way.
Would each selection would retain their center?

Other thoughts: While dragging the corner handles, some kind of snapping could appear when objects crosses other geometry entities. Also, maybe the center gizmo could also snap to objects.

Regards,

Marc
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.66 In reply to 1571.64 
Hi Dan,

> Actually you can spec. pivot point in Illustrator with a bounding
> box, limitation is it's only to the 9 presets shown in short video
> attached.

That is definitely interesting, but if I follow the video correctly, you are again showing a dedicated transform tool which you clicked in the toolbar to activate. Similar to the dedicated rotate or scale tools, this is also another different tool than just the selection tool (solid arrow at the top of the toolbar).

The part that I am working on currently is not a dedicated tool that you launch but something that is always available during selection mode, it is more like what you get when you use that solid arrow selection tool in Illustrator.

You can use MoI's existing dedicated scale or rotation tools to perform similar functions to what you show in your video.


> I see your point about making this as simple to use as possible but
> even with the bounding box in Illustrator it doesn't take long to
> out-grow it's usefullness when working on anything but simple tasks.

Right, that's why Illustrator provides more than just that simple tool for doing transforms.

MoI is similar - already in version 1.0 MoI provides the more complete tools for scaling or rotating around any point you specify. Those are available currently under the Transform palette on the right side pane. What it is missing is something really quick for handling simple adjustments without needing to go to the toolbar to launch a specific command.

That's what this new frame is intended to provide.

The new frame is not meant to handle all situations, that's what the existing commands already do - it is more intended to just handle more simple things.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.67 In reply to 1571.65 
Hi Marc,

> Other thoughts: While dragging the corner handles, some kind of
> snapping could appear when objects crosses other geometry entities.

Yup, it actually works this way - you can snap on to any point you can normally snap on to when dragging that handle. That will scale the object to put the edge of its bounding box going through that point.


> Also, maybe the center gizmo could also snap to objects.

I am going to try to do this for the "tri-ball" rotation mode.

- Michael
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 From:  danperk (SBEECH)
1571.68 
Hi Michael,

The only reason I selected the bounding box from the tool bar is I have it turned off by default.:)

What is the Command for Rotate to jump to rotation centre prompt so I can hot key it?(tried Rotate, but no workee)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.69 In reply to 1571.68 
> The only reason I selected the bounding box from the tool bar
> is I have it turned off by default.:)

It looks like that "choose center" widget in Illustrator (with the 9 little squares) only has an effect on using the numeric rotation input in that Transform dialog that you popped up. Setting it to different locations does not seem to have any effect on the standard selection tool frame.

Popping up that dialog is again using a different tool than just the plain selection bounding box.


> What is the Command for Rotate to jump to rotation centre prompt
> so I can hot key it?(tried Rotate, but no workee)

Some shapes like a circle, ellipse or rectangle will have a snap point at their center that you can grab on to. Otherwise you may need to use some construction lines to get an intersection at the center.

However, the good news is that this new frame tool will make it really easy to rotate around the center using the rotation grip instead of using the Rotate command.

- Michael
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 From:  danperk (SBEECH)
1571.70 In reply to 1571.69 
Reset my default and you are correct, I never use the Selection tool (black arrow) only the direct selection tool
(white arrow).

To re-phrase my question, I want to hot key Rotate, could you tell me the command line to use in options
for key settings?


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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.71 In reply to 1571.70 
Hi Dan,

> To re-phrase my question, I want to hot key Rotate, could you tell
> me the command line to use in options for key settings?

Oops, sorry I didn't catch that part.

But you should be able to just put in Rotate as the command like you show in your screenshot there.

Is that not working for you? With your keyboard shortcuts set up as you show, you should be able to select an object, then push Alt+R, which will trigger the rotate command, you should get a prompt in the upper-right corner that says "Pick center of rotation".

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.72 In reply to 1571.71 
Or do you mean you want to set up a hot key for rotation around an object's bounding box center point? There isn't any way to set that up in version 1.0, sorry.

- Michael
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 From:  danperk (SBEECH)
1571.73 In reply to 1571.70 
Too many things running I think. I re-started Moi and it works.

Thanks!!!

Back on topic :)
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 From:  WillBellJr
1571.74 In reply to 1571.62 
"Actually, Illustrator does allow for scaling and rotating from selection mode without using those special tools. But the dedicated tools allow setting the origin point which you can't do using the quick bounding box grips."

Yes, Michael, that's what I was talking about - setting the origin point is an important feature to me for a function like this.

I have Corel X3 I have to reinstall it (not sure if I have it installed in my new desktop yet) - trying Fireworks just now, I love how they have it setup; draw an object, hit ctrl-t and the typical bounding box manipulator appears with the 8 handles in their usual positions (the pivot is in the center of the box)

You can immediately grab the pivot and move it around anywhere within or outside the bounding box. The nice thing is, if you move the pivot to any of the 8 bounding box handles, it snaps to the box for precise positioning.

If you dbl-click the pivot, it snaps back to the center of the bounding box...

Move the cursor exactly over one of the bbox squares and you get the stretch cursor, (scale for corners) move anywhere else around the bbox and you get the rotate cursor.

Holding the down ALT key causes the stretch or scale to happen from the center (the pivot is immediately moved back to the center of the bbox)

-Will
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.75 In reply to 1571.74 
Hi Will,

> Yes, Michael, that's what I was talking about - setting the
> origin point is an important feature to me for a function
> like this.

I've seen some programs that let you define a rotation origin point, but setting a scaling origin point with the bounding box manipulator seems to be very uncommon.

For example, just doing some quick testing right now, it is not possible to do this in Adobe Illustrator, Inkscape, CorelDraw12, Visio, or Xara.

I'll take a look at Fireworks though, and see how they handle it. I do notice that you mention a special activation key (ctrl-t?) - that might again put it into a category of a special manipulator mode and not something that comes up automatically just during selections. I'm trying to work on something here that comes up automatically just with selections, so I have to try and keep it a lot more streamlined, I can't really put a bunch of stuff on the screen like a dedicated transformation mode could do.


Right now I think that I will try to have some optional way to move the center for rotations, but probably not scaling since that is just not typically done with this kind of quick bounding box manipulators. But we'll see, maybe I can come up with something.

- Michael
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
1571.76 In reply to 1571.75 
I could cry! (I am!)
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.77 In reply to 1571.74 
Hi Will, I just took a look at Fireworks...

When in selection mode in Fireworks, there does not appear to be any kind of edit frame shown around the objects at all. It seems that you have to go to a special transform tool/mode (either click on the toolbar, or Ctrl+T).

That's quite a bit different than what I'm trying to accomplish - I'm trying to set up an editing frame that comes up automatically when you are in selection mode, it won't be required to click a toolbar button or shortcut key to enter a special editing mode to get it (unless you have decided to hide them which will be a choice).

Also even in the transform mode in Fireworks, I can see that there is a pivot point that can be placed that changes the center of rotation, but it does not seem to have any effect at all on scaling. Scaling seems to happen around the opposite corner, or the center point if Alt is down, not about that pivot point that can be placed at any location.

Also when you do a scale it appears to reset the pivot to the center of the object.

So as far as I can tell, this is another example of a program that does bounding box editing allowing an arbitrary relocation of the rotation pivot, but not of the scaling origin.

So far I have not come across a single application that allows arbitrary placement of the scaling origin with an "immediate" bounding frame editor (instead of a dedicated scaling mode), it is just not a very good fit with a bounding frame.

- Michael
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 From:  WillBellJr
1571.78 In reply to 1571.77 
Hi Michael, yes, it's the object transform command <ctrl>-T in Fireworks.

I didn't think it mattered how the object transform mode was invoked - in MOI you wanted it to be automatic, I don't really see a difference?

It's the function that we're after whether automatically or manually invoked!

Yes, for scaling and stretching, in FW, it's always as if the "opposite corner" is locked or used as the origin UNLESS you hold down the ALT key, then the operation is from the center.

The pivot also immediately snaps back to the center when you start scaling or stretching as well.

The way its implemented here - arbitrary pivot for rotations, opposite corner or center (alt) when stretching and scaling seems like it would be nice within MOI.

Again, unless I'm missing something, I don't see any reason it would be necessary to invoke a mode for this? I just think that's standard fare for these illustration apps - having that automatically take place upon a selection, would be a refreshing save of a keystroke in my opinion! :-)

-Will

PS - I think typically when there's other things you can or want to do with a selection (drag move?), the transform is made to be a special mode so it doesn't "interfere" with the "normal" operation for a selection?

Frankly I don't know why transform is always used as a special mode and is not automatic within these illustration apps? Just probaby years of companies simply copying form and fashion of others or not being interested in the absolute conservation of GUI as you are with MOI??
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.79 In reply to 1571.78 
Hi Will,

> I didn't think it mattered how the object transform mode was
> invoked - in MOI you wanted it to be automatic, I don't really
> see a difference?

The problem is when it is automatic it means that it is on the screen all the time, which means it can potentially be getting in the way more often.

So an automatic thing needs to be more "low profile" and have less widgets and just less stuff on the screen than what a dedicated mode can have....


I think I have figured out a good way to have all the standard stuff covered though.


For scaling, I'll have it go around the center by default, but if you click and release (instead of holding down and dragging) on a corner handle, I will flip the scale origin between the center and the corner, there will be a little point that will show up to indicate the current origin. I'll show some screenshots of this once I have this working.


For rotation if you click (instead of drag) on the rotation widget it will go into a kind of special rotation mode and that will give you a center grip that you can move to place the rotation pivot at any spot. It will maybe be a couple of days before I get to this rotation part.


Then last night I had a really cool idea on how to incorporate basic mirroring into the whole thing as well, more on that later today...

- Michael
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 From:  WillBellJr
1571.80 In reply to 1571.79 
Sounds like you're having fun!

I don't really see a difference from what you're planning and say the Fireworks Widget - styled the way you've been talking of course.

I'm not sure what you mean by "click and not drag"? Since these widgets are typically used by dragging on them I'm not sure what this "click" is buying you here? (That "click" is sorta sounding like that "ctrl-T" since you're doing something directly after selecting something - an extra step??)

Are you saying where you click will be the set point for the pivot?

With fireworks, whatever corner you start to drag, >the opposite corner< is considered the pivot or better, anchor for scale (corners) and stretch (sides) operations - can it get any simpler than this??

Only when the ALT key is down during the drag, is the center of the BBox used as the anchor for the scale/stretch...


Once the object is in "transform mode" (after being selected in your case) you're just dragging to perform the operation (the only precursor being first positioning the pivot for a non-BBox centered rotation after selection)...

I would say the pivot is not even needed for the scale/stretch since as in FW, it's immediately moved back to the center anyway.

I guess however the widget doesn't know initially if you're going to scale/stretch or rotate until you start your drag so the pivot has to be shown for initial placement (in the ultimate case of a rotation being performed...)


I'm sure however what you come up with will be cool - I guess once you get some pics up, that'll explain better what you're implementing. :-)

-Will
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