Hi Jesse,

> I like the idea of having a more versatile way of scaling objects,
> it enables you to do some more free-form modeling stuff.

Here's another aspect that I think you may be interested in - you know when you want to kind of cinch together 2 symmetric points, how you can do that with Scale1D but it takes quite a few picks to make it happen?

Now that kind of editing will be immediately available. Like say you've got this object:



And you would like to symmetrically narrow one pair of points. You can select those 2 points, and a frame will appear around them:



Then dragging a corner of that frame inward will do the 1D scale in that direction:



So you can make this kind of adjustment really quickly by Select then Drag, Select then Drag, etc.., you don't have to fire up Scale1D and pick the center, etc... each time.

I do want to eventually have an even better method for symmetrical editing, but this is definitely easier than what you currently have to do.


> If there was some kind of unobtrusive dialog box that let you type
> in precise x,y,z dimensions to scale a single object with this method,
> that would also be great...or would that complicate it too much, and
> be better suited for another type of scaling tool?

I want to make this kind of numeric editing possible by using the object properties panel, which is another thing that I want to add for v2. This will be a dialog-like panel that will show up in the upper-right area of the window (where command options usually go) when you are in selection mode and not in a command.

- Michael

Hi Jonah,

> Yes. In Adobe software, you can move the pivot wherever you like,
> and all transforms will center around it (scale, rotate, move, shear, taper)

I'll have to take a look at that - that must be something relatively new in Illustrator, in versions up to 11 (CS0) it does not seem to work like that.


> ... crazy?

:) Sounds kind of crazy to me...

How about if I enable 2D scaling if you hold down some key while dragging the handle?

- Michael

Hello again...

>> I'll have to take a look at that - that must be something relatively new in Illustrator, in versions >> to 11 (CS0) it does not seem to work like that.

It's there in CS0, i haven't upgraded since


> How about if I enable 2D scaling if you hold down some key while dragging the handle?

That was my first thought, but i know how MoI users are partial to eating donuts and such as they work, so i had to dig around in my skull for an alternative... :) Really i think it should be possible though...

jonah

Hi Jonah,

> It's there in CS0, i haven't upgraded since

I can't seem to get it to work, can you please describe how this works in Illustrator a bit more?

I see that you can place the origin point for scale using the special "Scale tool", but that is a special mode you go into, similar to the scale command in MoI or Rhino - it is not the same thing as the 8-point bounding frame that shows up in selection mode (Arrow tool in far upper-left corner of the Illustrator toolbox).

I tried placing an origin point in the scale tool, and that has no effect on scaling using the 8-point bounding frame when inside the Select tool.

Here is some documentation for the most recent version of Illustrator:
http://www.adobepress.com/articles/article.asp?p=1016097&seqNum=6
There is no mention in there of any method to place an arbitrary scale origin with the bounding box scaling (you can hold down Alt to use the center instead of opposite corner).

Are you sure that you were not thinking of the dedicated scale tool in Illustrator instead of the selection mode bounding box?


> but i know how MoI users are partial to eating donuts and such as they work,

Well, for simple 3D scales that would still work fine, you could eat BBQ ribs or something... :)

I don't think it is a problem if standard "most frequently used" stuff works without modifier keys, and then there are some modifier keys for some more specialized advanced things.

- Michael

Showing the Carrara Widgets in both 2d and 3d views.

This Modelling Room view may be more "MoI"?

Sorry, it seems just so logically perfect to me!

Sorry Michael. You are right. The pivot point works on the dedicated rotate and shear tools, not on the basic bounding box transform. If you can consolidate all this into one, then more power to MoI. And yes, BBQ ribs are MUCH better than donuts while modeling. It's good training to break the habit of one hand on keyboard, seeing as the other one is covered in sauce...

jonah

Hi Brian,

> Sorry, it seems just so logically perfect to me!

It looks great for manipulating stuff in the 3D view.

But as a replacement for the bounding-frame type editing in a 2D app like Illustrator / Xara / etc... ? It really doesn't seem like a good fit there.

For instance scaling would be handled by clicking and dragging on a point that shows up in the center of a shape? Is that really how you would expect to scale an object in Illustrator?

- Michael

Hi Jonah,

> If you can consolidate all this into one, then more power to MoI.

It's just kind of a tougher fit to have corner-type widgets and also allow the origin to be freely placed, it would mean adjusting the frame or something like that. Like for instance here:



It doesn't really make any sense to have that frame situated like that, but to scale around some other point outside the frame like the point on the left there. I would have to move that frame to be around that point or something like that.

A freely centerable scale I think needs a different style widget, something more like a line that has one end as the scale origin, and the other end as the scaling grip. Something more like the kind of 2 line type thing that happens with the regular scale command.

I'm not really sure about doing that right now, I think I'd better do something for rotation first.

- Michael

Michael have you used it in the 2d views of say Carrara?
Yes I would like it in Illustrator or whatever.

If you have Carrara , in the Vertex Room or Hexagon, resize/adjust/scale whatever against a grid or drawing in the background--it's pretty good for me.

Somebody will say this is not a good example---I want to fit the cube object to the background oblong size/location.?

In say Carrara I can do that without moving away from that small gizmo in the center of the cube.

Hi Michael,

That symmetrical kind of editing a control points is fantastic!

What currently happens if I click & release a mouse on the rotate icon?

And is there also a "feature" which allow mirroring/flipping when you drag the point cursor from one corner frame widget towards one of the opposite one like for background image manipulation?


Petr

It may be me wishfull thinking!

But I must make my point.
(ps- the gizmo works in relation to selected or grouped points, et, etc)

The difference between clicking to select an item in MoI compared with my normal click on an item in Carrara.

(I don't think my idea is going to win but I tried!)

> What currently happens if I click & release a mouse on the rotate icon?

At the moment nothing, I don't have any kind of rotation working on this one yet.

But I would like to show a tri-ball rotater like the background images have, but with the additional feature of being able to have a grabbable center point so you can move the center of rotation when in tri-ball mode.


> And is there also a "feature" which allow mirroring/flipping when
> you drag the point cursor from one corner frame widget towards
> one of the opposite one like for background image manipulation?

At the moment no - but I had a feeling you weren't going to let me get away without doing this... :)

I've been looking over a few different 2D apps and this isn't really consistent between them, some allow mirroring and some don't do it.

- Michael

Hi Brian,

> Somebody will say this is not a good example---I want to fit
> the cube object to the background oblong size/location.?

I intend to have a different set of orientation tools that will handle matching orientations like this.

Once the orientations are aligned, you can match sizes using the Transform/Scale1D command.

- Michael

Hi Brian,

> Michael have you used it in the 2d views of say Carrara?
> Yes I would like it in Illustrator or whatever.

I gave it a try in the 2d views in Carrara vertex room.

I just can't imagine how this would replace the editing frame in Illustrator... Things that work great for the 3D manipulation view seem very strange and arbitrary to me when focusing on the 2D view only.

Like having it on a circle - grabbing the center of the circle scales it?

It has a very asymmetrical appearance, a big arrow to the right and an arrow downward, a kind of rectangle piece hanging off on only one quadrant... Again - great for 3D but in 2D only it seems very strange... Sorry.

But I'm not ruling out doing something along these lines for the 3D view in the future at some point. It just is not a fit with what I am focusing on at the moment here which is more 2D like behavior.

- Michael

Michael.

For interest, I manipulated the square and the lettering, in the 2D space of the Carrara Assembly Room. (Not the Vertex Room) As in the attachment)

I then tried to do the same manipulations in MoI, Photoshop and Illustrator--to compare.

I think I would like to do a lot in Carrara and then take to those other apps--maybe?

I am mainly, from the first, a photoshop person in CG--I would love a Carrara widget! (And I remember when we got it in Carrara! (Is the Universal Manipulator still only in the Pro version?))


Enough from me anyway. It was a lesson in how one tends to accept what is the "norm" in an individual apps working proceedures.

Brian

[Quote]
Hi Steve,

> obviously not good documentation/ step-by-step if:-

Unfortunately it just isn't possible for me to force people to read the documentation.

Some people don't read the documentation, and for those people it doesn't matter how good the documentation is.

Definitely experience tells me that documentation, although certainly helpful to many many users, is not a direct replacement for making the software easier and more expected to use.

Believe me, my job would be a lot easier if it was!

- Michael
[Quote]

As someone who has been working in the Technical Publications sphere for 30 years now I can sympathize with your position. I also had a stint as an interface and interaction designer for a few years too and your goal of making the software work as expected is, IMHO, exactly right.

Keep up the good work.

I hope something can be figured out cause I'm of the opinion that an origin is important as well - sometimes you want to quickly stretch an object from its base or orbit an object around some other object or arbitrary point.

Yes I realize that you can use the command tools for that but the goal with this widget is for speed and free form construction and I'm used to a pivot being an option there (I'm a Fireworks and CorelDraw user...)

I can't think of too many more features right now (without looking at other apps I guess) but I'd love for MOI to have some of the best curve drawing and construction tools available!

At one point I was using MOI to create drawings but without being able to color and change line widths, it wasn't quite feasible. I guess this is one reason why I'd love to see the curve booleans so much too...

How far do you plan on taking the curves toolset? "Just enough" in support of object construction or do you plan on MOI being more than a 3D modeler?

In other words, perhaps support a minimal amount of 2D drawing as well?

-Will