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 From:  manz
1571.21 In reply to 1571.19 
Hi Michael,

>>>Actually, I'm not familiar with any 2D illustration program that puts the manipulator right in the middle of your objects

I thought we where discussing 3D applications?

I am no longer sure of your direction with MoI

For this implementation, I could see it working for simple rotate around center, but other option would need to be added such as pivot point manipulation. I cannot see this working as it would need additional options / input.

I really cannot see why you are looking at this first, when I would think such as "layers" and/or "user Cplane" would be higher needs from users. (certainly from my point of view)


- Steve
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.22 In reply to 1571.4 
Hi Dan,

> but as for me I rarely need to scale or rotate an
> object in such a "random" way.

There should be a few simple precision operations that this should help out with as well, for example rotating something by 90 or 180 degrees...

At any rate, the existing system isn't going anywhere, you will still be able to use Transform/Rotate and Transform/Scale as they current exist.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.23 In reply to 1571.21 
Hi Steve,

> I thought we where discussing 3D applications?
>
> I am no longer sure of your direction with MoI

It is a general long term goal of mine to make MoI have a combination of 2D and 3D features.

There is actually already a lot of emphasis on 2D curve drawing already, since 2D curves form the basis of a lot of 3D operations in simple NURBS modeling. That's why you can do things like draw 2D shapes like circles and rectangles, lines, etc... in MoI already. This just builds on that.


> but other option would need to be added such as pivot point
> manipulation. I cannot see this working as it would need
> additional options / input.

The simple method will just be around the center point - that will allow for some useful operations like flipping something around by 90 degrees.

I do have some ideas on enabling additional options and input in a pretty easy way, I have not had a chance to get to that part quite yet though, so I'm not sure yet how that will turn out.


> I really cannot see why you are looking at this first, when I
> would think such as "layers" and/or "user Cplane" would be
> higher needs from users. (certainly from my point of view)

I think that both of those will come pretty soon. I'm not exactly a robot that cranks out work solely oriented along the "highest needs" ranking at every single possible moment. Sometimes if I have a lot of inspiration or curiosity about a particular thing, I may decide to work on that for a while to strike while the iron is hot.

In this case, I had done a chunk of work on this already in V1 to kind of prep this area, and I had been meaning to get back to it for a while.

- Michael
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 From:  manz
1571.24 In reply to 1571.23 
Hi Michael,

>>>There is actually already a lot of emphasis on 2D curve drawing already, since 2D curves form the basis of a lot of 3D operations in simple NURBS modeling.

We see this also with poly modeling, but I do not see widgets based only on 2d views.

I can understand you want your own direction, and I will not argue. There is little point.

>>>The simple method will just be around the center point - that will allow for some useful operations like flipping something around by 90 degrees.

This is already available.

>>>I'm not exactly a robot that cranks out work solely oriented along the "highest needs" ranking at every single possible moment.

I did not infer that.

>>>Sometimes if I have a lot of inspiration or curiosity about a particular thing, I may decide to work on that for a while to strike while the iron is hot.

I can understand that.
I have inspiration/curiosity but find limits to this with the applications ability that I use.
I just thought you would follow more of a "needs for users" path rather then a "inspiration", seeing this is for sales rather than own use.


Just my thoughts, no disrespect intended.


- Steve
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.25 In reply to 1571.24 
Hi Steve,

> We see this also with poly modeling, but I do not see
> widgets based only on 2d views.

Yup, as far as I know this will be another one of MoI's innovations.

I guess it just does not seem to me to be a strange thing to make the 2d views work like a 2d application.


> I just thought you would follow more of a "needs for users"
> path rather then a "inspiration", seeing this is for sales
> rather than own use.

I have heard from a lot of users that get confused with how the current rotate and scale commands work.

So this area of work is definitely addressing an improvement that will help users, it isn't just a random piece of work.

Not every feature that I develop will be used by every single user, so it won't be unusual if you see something that I develop that does not help out you specifically.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.26 In reply to 1571.7 
Hi Fredrik,

> If the widget would snap to the cPlane grid, it could
> also be precise if you want it to...

The widget's starting position is based on the bounding box of the object. When you drag it, if you have grid snap turned on, then that new target point will snap on to the grid.

The way the scaling works, is that it puts the edge of the bounding box through that point that you pick.

So that should be able to give you a certain amount of accuracy in some situations.

But really to get precision results the regular scale command will still be the one to use, that one will have more control over the origin point of the scale, and also you can pick any feature on the shape as the reference point for that one, instead of the bounding box being the reference point.

- Michael
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 From:  manz
1571.27 In reply to 1571.25 
Hi Michael,

>>>Yup, as far as I know this will be another one of MoI's innovations.

It would to me, be a step backwards.

>>>I have heard from a lot of users that get confused with how the current rotate and scale commands work.

This for me would be a lack of info and correct demo on how such works.

I know now I waste my time continuing, so I will leave this thread.


- Steve
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.28 In reply to 1571.8 
Hi Jonah,

> 1. Must have adjustable pivot point (again, look to Adobe as example)

Are you talking about for scaling or rotation here?

I'm not sure about adjusting the center for scaling. Right now it scales around the center of the box instead of the opposite corner (Adobe does around the corner), because that helps a lot with editing symmetrical shapes.

For rotation I do have some ideas on how to adjust that - I haven't had a chance to get to that part yet though.


> 2. The corner handles look much too big

I have tried messing with that to make them smaller, but I think it kind of gives them a stubby look and feels less like a "corner" somehow.

Here is an example:



The corner is drawn using a PNG bitmap which you can edit if you want, so you can adjust that if you would like a different look.

Maybe I'll experiment with that smaller size a bit more though.


> 3. Must be able to do grid/object snapping as you drag the frame

Yup, the new point that you pick when you drag a corner can snap as per normal.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.29 In reply to 1571.27 
Hi Steve,

>> I have heard from a lot of users that get confused with
>> how the current rotate and scale commands work.

> This for me would be a lack of info and correct demo on how such works.

That is one reason why I put quite a bit of effort in the documentation for those, with step-by-step illustrations, etc...

But providing info and demos is not really as good of a solution as having the software work more like someone expects it to right off the bat.

- Michael
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 From:  manz
1571.30 In reply to 1571.29 
Hi Michael,

I did leave the thread, but need to comment:

>>That is one reason why I put quite a bit of effort in the documentation for those, with step-by-step illustrations, etc...

obviously not good documentation/ step-by-step if:-

>>I have heard from a lot of users that get confused with how the current rotate and scale commands work.

- Gone
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.31 In reply to 1571.12 
Hi Ed,

> I've always liked Corel Draw for it's intuitive interface.
>
> Click on an object and a frame containing 8 handles surrounds it.

I had thought before about doing that same kind of 8-handle type thing, but one really big goal with this new system in MoI is to keep it very unobtrusive and stay out of your way as much as possible. A big part of that is trying to not put up too much stuff on the screen, so the fewer handles the better.

I really wanted to eliminate those 4 "side" handles - instead of having those I figured out a way to get that stretching by just moving along the sideways direction instead of grabbing on a totally different handle.

With those gone, it lets me replace just one of those with a rotation handle so that simple rotation is also always immediately available instead of requiring an additional click or mode to trigger it.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.32 In reply to 1571.30 
Hi Steve,

> obviously not good documentation/ step-by-step if:-

Unfortunately it just isn't possible for me to force people to read the documentation.

Some people don't read the documentation, and for those people it doesn't matter how good the documentation is.

Definitely experience tells me that documentation, although certainly helpful to many many users, is not a direct replacement for making the software easier and more expected to use.

Believe me, my job would be a lot easier if it was!

- Michael
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 From:  Ed
1571.33 In reply to 1571.31 
Works for me - I'm ready to try it.

I'm glad you're enhancing the 2D capabilities. When I first purchased MoI I was drawing 2D Corel Draw (out of habit and familiarity) and importing into MoI. Now I'm more comfortable doing the entire design in MoI.

I agree with wanting intuitive controls. An application should allow you to do all the basics without opening a manual. Bizarre UI's just frustrate the user - I never did get any use out of TrueSpace for that reason.

Ed
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.34 In reply to 1571.13 
Hi Steve, you wrote:

> I note you did not mention "move", having any
> form of widgets (IMHO) should have rotate/scale and move.

Like Petr mentions, this is already handled in V1 by dragging directly on an object, so no extra widget is needed for this.


> Firstly, having these widgets outside the object, well, it could
> be too easy to click the widget instead of an intended object
> selection that is behind the widget, or the other way, an
> intended click on the widget may select an object behind.

Yup, this is definitely one problem area - when the area around the widgets gets busy with a lot of other objects there can be problems like this. This is a fundamental problem with widgets in general.

Right now the way I have it set up, is that the widgets will never interfere with object selection - they will only be targeted if there was no object otherwise in range of the mouse. This goes along with the "low profile" goal, but I'm not so sure it is the right thing to do, it seems that with other systems it is more common for the widget to take precedence.

It will take some time messing around with them before I can figure out which is a better default.


> Also, a rotate around where? If as in your example you have
> 3 objects selected, then the center of rotation is going to be where?

Those corner widgets are framing a rectangle - the center of rotation will be at the center of that rectangle. I will be doing some more work on rotation soon, I haven't quite got to that part yet.


> Having a 3D application with 2d widgets, that can scale in 1D
> or 3D, but not directly in 2D (2 steps would be required),.... strange.

Like Petr mentions, the 3D scale when applied to 2D objects all on the same plane will have the same end result as a 2D scale.

In general it is a lot more common for people to use a 3D scale on 3D volumes so that really has to be the primary scaling method if you just drag the corner and move it around.

If you do need to do a 2D deforming scale on a 3D object, the existing Transform/Scale/Scale2D will still be available for doing that.


> Also, with widgets, I would normally expect to see them in the 3d view.

I actually haven't totally ruled this out yet, but it is difficult for 3D objects since this new grip system is fundamentally a 2D plane.

I have thought a bit about an 8-corner frame in the 3D view... But possibly the center-tripod more standard style manipulator is a better way to go for that view. I'm not really sure if I will be able to get to that for v2 yet.

My plan is to nail down an easy to use 2D manipulator for the 2D views first.

- Michael

EDITED: 22 Apr 2008 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.35 In reply to 1571.33 
Hi Ed,

> Works for me - I'm ready to try it.

What I'm going to try and do is finish up this object frame thing, see if I can also add drawing directly on planes, and also incorporate an update to the geometry library.

Then once I have that stuff ready (wild guess - 3 more weeks?) - I'll put out the first v2 beta with that batch of new stuff in it.

Then I think I will focus on some object properties / object management stuff for the one after that.

- Michael
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 From:  jbshorty
1571.36 In reply to 1571.28 
Hi Michael.


>>Are you talking about for scaling or rotation here?

Yes. In Adobe software, you can move the pivot wherever you like, and all transforms will center around it (scale, rotate, move, shear, taper) So i think it would be good in MoI as well. Of course, you will have to add in those last 2 features... ;)

Also i would suggest some method for 2D scaling. I actually use 2D scaling A LOT. Perhaps you could add an invisible grip on the interior portion of the corner grip. I have another suggestion, but maybe you will think i am crazy. But here goes anyway...

As you mouse over one extension of the corner bracket, the mouse icon actually points in the direction of the potential scaling direction. And if you mouse over the interior corner (the hidden grip), then a double arrow icon will replace the mouse arrow to indicate the potential 2D scaling... crazy?

jonah
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.37 In reply to 1571.16 
Hi Jesse,

> I like the idea of having a more versatile way of scaling objects,
> it enables you to do some more free-form modeling stuff.

Here's another aspect that I think you may be interested in - you know when you want to kind of cinch together 2 symmetric points, how you can do that with Scale1D but it takes quite a few picks to make it happen?

Now that kind of editing will be immediately available. Like say you've got this object:



And you would like to symmetrically narrow one pair of points. You can select those 2 points, and a frame will appear around them:



Then dragging a corner of that frame inward will do the 1D scale in that direction:



So you can make this kind of adjustment really quickly by Select then Drag, Select then Drag, etc.., you don't have to fire up Scale1D and pick the center, etc... each time.

I do want to eventually have an even better method for symmetrical editing, but this is definitely easier than what you currently have to do.


> If there was some kind of unobtrusive dialog box that let you type
> in precise x,y,z dimensions to scale a single object with this method,
> that would also be great...or would that complicate it too much, and
> be better suited for another type of scaling tool?

I want to make this kind of numeric editing possible by using the object properties panel, which is another thing that I want to add for v2. This will be a dialog-like panel that will show up in the upper-right area of the window (where command options usually go) when you are in selection mode and not in a command.

- Michael

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.38 In reply to 1571.36 
Hi Jonah,

> Yes. In Adobe software, you can move the pivot wherever you like,
> and all transforms will center around it (scale, rotate, move, shear, taper)

I'll have to take a look at that - that must be something relatively new in Illustrator, in versions up to 11 (CS0) it does not seem to work like that.


> ... crazy?

:) Sounds kind of crazy to me...

How about if I enable 2D scaling if you hold down some key while dragging the handle?

- Michael
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 From:  jbshorty
1571.39 In reply to 1571.38 
Hello again...

>> I'll have to take a look at that - that must be something relatively new in Illustrator, in versions >> to 11 (CS0) it does not seem to work like that.

It's there in CS0, i haven't upgraded since


> How about if I enable 2D scaling if you hold down some key while dragging the handle?

That was my first thought, but i know how MoI users are partial to eating donuts and such as they work, so i had to dig around in my skull for an alternative... :) Really i think it should be possible though...

jonah
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.40 In reply to 1571.39 
Hi Jonah,

> It's there in CS0, i haven't upgraded since

I can't seem to get it to work, can you please describe how this works in Illustrator a bit more?

I see that you can place the origin point for scale using the special "Scale tool", but that is a special mode you go into, similar to the scale command in MoI or Rhino - it is not the same thing as the 8-point bounding frame that shows up in selection mode (Arrow tool in far upper-left corner of the Illustrator toolbox).

I tried placing an origin point in the scale tool, and that has no effect on scaling using the 8-point bounding frame when inside the Select tool.

Here is some documentation for the most recent version of Illustrator:
http://www.adobepress.com/articles/article.asp?p=1016097&seqNum=6
There is no mention in there of any method to place an arbitrary scale origin with the bounding box scaling (you can hold down Alt to use the center instead of opposite corner).

Are you sure that you were not thinking of the dedicated scale tool in Illustrator instead of the selection mode bounding box?


> but i know how MoI users are partial to eating donuts and such as they work,

Well, for simple 3D scales that would still work fine, you could eat BBQ ribs or something... :)

I don't think it is a problem if standard "most frequently used" stuff works without modifier keys, and then there are some modifier keys for some more specialized advanced things.

- Michael
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