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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.1 
I've been making some pretty good progress on the first v2 feature, which is a frame type widget that shows around the outside of the selected objects. The idea is to make it possible to do quick scaling or rotation edits without having to start a command.



If you drag a grip towards the right, it will do a 1D horizontal scale:



If you drag a grip vertically, it will do a 1D vertical scale:



If you drag anywhere else that is not along those tracking lines, it will do a 3D scale.


My original plan was to make this frame show up only on 2D planar objects to start with.

I've kind of switched that around - now it looks like I will put it around all objects, but the frame only shows up in the ortho (Top/Front/Right) views.

- Michael

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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
1571.2 In reply to 1571.1 
Struggling to find the difference to the current set up?

Are you suggesting a, the grouping working ability, and or b, that one can create ones own simple, off object, "slider" for the direction?

Sorry if I missed something Michael.

Brian
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.3 In reply to 1571.2 
Hi Brian, the new part is the corners that frame the selection, here I have circled them in red:



The new functionality is being able to grab on one of those corner frame widgets and drag it to size the objects.

The one in the middle on the top is going to be for rotation.

- Michael

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 From:  Daniele (BADANS)
1571.4 In reply to 1571.3 
Hi Michael, I think that's a nice way to do quick scaling and/or rotating, but as for me I rarely need to scale or rotate an object in such a "random" way. The strongpoint of MoI (and Rhino) scaling/rotating system is that you can specify the pivot point from where the command applies. It's a question of choice, I guess. I've never loved gizmos very much!
Keep up the good work, though...!
Ciao
Dan

"The darker the night, the closer the dawn."
(Buddhist Proverb)

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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
1571.5 In reply to 1571.4 
Is there any problem with incorporation perhaps the more universal system?

It seems to be becoming pretty well the standard in most apps now.

EDITED: 31 Dec 2008 by BWTR

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 From:  -ash-
1571.6 In reply to 1571.4 
[Quote]
Hi Michael, I think that's a nice way to do quick scaling and/or rotating, but as for me I rarely need to scale or rotate an object in such a "random" way. The strongpoint of MoI (and Rhino) scaling/rotating system is that you can specify the pivot point from where the command applies. It's a question of choice, I guess. I've never loved gizmos very much!
Keep up the good work, though...!
Ciao
Dan

"The darker the night, the closer the dawn."
(Buddhist Proverb)
[Quote]

I agree with this - I love the way MoI scales at the moment. However, that doesn't mean that other people won't want/need the handles.

Can i suggest that there is an option to turn them on/off? By viewport and on the fly (with key board shortcut), if possible.
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 From:  Fredrik (FREDRIKW)
1571.7 In reply to 1571.4 
Looks nice Michael!

If the widget would snap to the cPlane grid, it could also be precise if you want it to...

-F
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 From:  jbshorty
1571.8 
This looks great, Michael! I actually like this much better than typical gizmos found in polygonal modelers. It is the one great thing i always liked about Illustrator (I hate everything else about it!). Very interesting to have this in a 3D program as well... My only 2 comments are:

1. Must have adjustable pivot point (again, look to Adobe as example)
2. The corner handles look much too big
3. Must be able to do grid/object snapping as you drag the frame

jonah
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 From:  Brian (BWTR)
1571.9 In reply to 1571.8 
Different people different ways!

I just find the current Carrara type "gizmo" with both the multi and single options , the best think since sliced bread---like MoI!
I find it unusual that anyone who has used the Carrara type could ever wish to have anything else? Both, as it is, in the Modelling room and in the Vertex(poly) room of Carrara.

I want them in Photoshop and Illustrator as well!
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 From:  WillBellJr
1571.10 In reply to 1571.8 
I agree with Jonah about the pivot!

Being one who previously asked for a "quick" way to scale and rotate (we already have a quick translate), I can definitely appreciate seeing this wired in!

-Will

PS - I'd still love to see MOI have LWCAD's realtime curve booleans (during curve creation similar to the video)
http://www.wtools3d.com/swf/tutorials/RTboolean/RTboolean.html
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 From:  DannyT (DANTAS)
1571.11 
I see where your coming from Micheal, you have all the scaling and rotation options presented in front of you in 3 views with one click of an icon...mmm I like.
I agree with a pivot point option, apart from the mouse, you could probably have some Windows functionality like Arrow Keys to nudge to snap points and CTRL+Arrow
for finer increments same with rotation, click on the rotate widget, pick pivot point (optional), arrow keys, 1 deg increments, CTRL+Arrow, finer.
Maybe incorperate a center thingy in the widget set for 'Move', again, arrow key as above, and hold CTRL+drag makes a copy.
The MS Office users will love it ;)

Cheers
Danny
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 From:  Ed
1571.12 
I've always liked Corel Draw for it's intuitive interface.

Click on an object and a frame containing 8 handles surrounds it. Drag a handle to stretch the object. Drag a corner handle to re-size proportional.

Click the object again and the frame corner handles turn into curved arrows. Drag a frame corner to rotate the object. Drag a frame edge to skew the object.

A bulls eye center of rotation symbol appears in the center of the object by default. Drag the symbol anywhere inside or outside the object to change the center of rotation.

All can be specified via keyboard input if you need precision.

Simple and clean.

Ed

EDITED: 22 Apr 2008 by ED

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 From:  manz
1571.13 In reply to 1571.1 
Hi Michael,

I note you did not mention "move", having any form of widgets (IMHO) should have rotate/scale and move.

I would agree with Brian. Widgets are now quite universal, Having an implementation as you put forward could cause some problems.
Firstly, having these widgets outside the object, well, it could be too easy to click the widget instead of an intended object selection that is behind the widget, or the other way, an intended click on the widget may select an object behind. Also, a rotate around where? If as in your example you have 3 objects selected, then the center of rotation is going to be where? That, as mentioned would need an extra option to set/move pivot point. With a widget (as mentioned by Brian), the widget itself is the pivot point, and could be moved by clicking/ dragging on its center.(or right click pivot center with popup options).

Also, with widgets, I would normally expect to see them in the 3d view.

Personally, I would disable such widgets as you suggest.

- Steve

EDIT:

The more I think of this implementation, the stranger it feels.

Having a 3D application with 2d widgets, that can scale in 1D or 3D, but not directly in 2D (2 steps would be required),.... strange.

Sorry Michael for my negativity on this.

EDITED: 22 Apr 2008 by MANZ

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 From:  tyglik
1571.14 In reply to 1571.13 
Hi Steve,

>>any form of widgets (IMHO) should have rotate/scale and move.

You can move an objects simple by dragging it. And that object's widget will move as well, logically.

>>Also, a rotate around where?

e.g. a center of bounding box of a selection.

>>Having a 3D application with 2d widgets, that can scale in 1D or 3D

How often do you need to scale/deform a 3D object by scaling 2D only. For planar object, e.g. curves, it will work like expected - just scale such curves in both directions.


Petr
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 From:  manz
1571.15 In reply to 1571.14 
Hi Petr,

>>>You can move an objects simple by dragging it. And that object's widget will move as well, logically

Yes, but that brings up further questions, possibly further problems, such as: Where is center of rotation:-

>>>e.g. a center of bounding box of a selection.

As asked, how would the center of rotation be changed, you could not simply click on the center pivot and move, as there is the possibility of moving the object instead, or, if you can click on and move pivot, then you could click to move object, but move pivot instead.

>>>How often do you need to scale/deform a 3D object by scaling 2D only.

In a freeform style modeling (that I do often), quite a lot, which I perform in a 2d view.


Widgets in a 3D application should be accessible in a 3D window. An implementation as mentioned by Brian could be accessible in the 3D view and also give easier access to pivot point.

Anyway, if this is implemented, then as long as I can completely disable it, then no problem. For me it is far easier to use current style, as this gives me (for rotate) simple control of pivot and rotate angle


- Steve

EDITED: 22 Apr 2008 by MANZ

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 From:  Jesse
1571.16 In reply to 1571.1 
Hi Michael,

I like the idea of having a more versatile way of scaling objects, it enables you to do some more free-form modeling stuff. If there was some kind of unobtrusive dialog box that let you type in precise x,y,z dimensions to scale a single object with this method, that would also be great...or would that complicate it too much, and be better suited for another type of scaling tool?

-Jesse
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
1571.17 
I suppose that is the same system that the "view image" so grid will surely enable or not
Pivot will be works : just move first on the internal surface then rotate in the appropriate view...
but I have not... ;) just supposition ;)
Have external handles seems comfortable for the see all the objects inside

EDITED: 22 Apr 2008 by PILOU

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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.18 
Wow a ton of great feedback/comments/questions here, it will take me a bit to make it through them all.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.19 In reply to 1571.5 
Hi Brian,

You wrote:
> Is there any problem with incorporation perhaps the
> more universal system?

There is a pretty big problem with that system - it shows up right directly in the middle of your object making it get in the way of just looking at your model.

That tends to make it something that can't just be turned on 100% of the time...


Maybe at some point in the future I might add that type of system as another alternative way, especially for working in the 3D view.


> It seems to be becoming pretty well the standard in
> most apps now.

Actually, I'm not familiar with any 2D illustration program that puts the manipulator right in the middle of your objects. Those programs all tend to have a kind of frame that goes around the outside of the selected objects instead of right on top of the objects.

One big goal I have with MoI is to make it feel more like a 2D illustration program when you are working in the Top, Front, or Right views.

- Michael
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 From:  Michael Gibson
1571.20 In reply to 1571.6 
Hi ash,

you wrote:
> Can i suggest that there is an option to turn them on/off?
> By viewport and on the fly (with key board shortcut), if possible.

There will definitely be a way to turn it off if you want to.

My plan at first is to have a checkbox for it on the Options dialog, and it will also be possible to set up a keyboard shortcut for it.

If it ends up being something that people turn on or off frequently, I could also put a button on the top level UI for it next to Object Snap. However, I'm pretty hesitant to add buttons to the top level unless they provide a significant benefit.

Right now my hope is that this frame will stay far enough out of your way that if you want to use them, you will just always leave them turned on instead of flipping them on or off all the time.

- Michael
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