Plasticity 3D vs. Moi 3D | Surface Modeling Comparison Closed
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 From:  zarkow
11089.1 

EDITED: 14 May 2023 by MICHAEL GIBSON

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 From:  Anthony (PROP_DESIGN)
11089.2 In reply to 11089.1 
@zarko

thanks for this. it's very helpful. i've been watching the progress of each program, however, it's hard to tell the true differences without actually getting deeply involved with each program. you're modelling skills are amazing. you were doing things in MoI I didn't even know where possible. My modelling skills are very basic. For a 1.0 release, and the time frame he did it in, Plasticity is impressive. It will help motivate the entire cad world, which has been very slow to progress and often just flat out ignores user requests. Rhino hasn't addressed anything significant that causes me, and many others, problems. I never even had to report any of the problems, because there are 1000s of forum posts about them already, lol. Rhino keeps tacking on stuff I will never use. Plus, their pricing for what I need, just doesn't jive. There really isn't anything I love out there. Each program has pros and cons. Your solution of using multiple tools, is the necessary coarse of action for the foreseeable future.

Rhino has the worst kernel but all the features i need. however, they just don't work good and i have to try over and over to get a half decent result. if they had a good kernel and sold varying levels of features, it would be great. moi is close to what i need but the step export killed it for me. trying to switch from rhino to moi was also much more difficult than i anticipated, as all the commands i use in rhino function completely differently in moi. i'm not sure plasticity has what i would need or ever will. i love the filleting. so i have thought about adding that just so i can make good fillets. something nearly impossible in rhino. the n-sided patching would also come in very handy.

i do hope any given program won't put the other out of business though and somehow everyone can thrive and progress over time. it will be interesting to see what happens. i don't have much hope for rhino, given there development history. moi has impressed me with their dev, community, etc... i just sadly didn't have the experience that most people on the forum have. so i'm still stuck with crappy rhino 5. they never gave me a reason to go to 6 or 7 and 8 is looking pretty bad for me as well. good thing i've been retired for a long time. at this point, it really doesn't matter. the dev time was way to slow, lol. i aged out before cad progressed enough. i was around before rhino 1.0, lol, sigh.

anthony
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 From:  zarkow
11089.3 
Thank You

Maybe XNurbs could be good for you, my dream would be XNurbs for Moi3D, this could be a gamechanger.
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 From:  Frenchy Pilou (PILOU)
11089.4 In reply to 11089.3 
https://www.xnurbs.com 395$ ;)
and I suppose you need to have Rhino!
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 From:  Anthony (PROP_DESIGN)
11089.5 
hi zarkow,

yeah i have been following xnurbs too. it looked interesting at first. then the dev started acting poorly on the forum and turned a lot of people off. like frenchy mentions, the price is high, just to do a few things that rhino can't. xnurbs homepage was always a red flag for me. he constantly claims it's the best nurbs kernel around, when it's obviously not a nurbs kernel. it just does some things a nurbs kernel can't do yet. if everyone wasn't so money hungry, xnrubs would have just been a patch to an open source nurbs kernel. it looks like a useful product though. i think the price makes your dream of moi + xnurbs impossible. he is charging so much for so little. not sure how he could ever sell it to moi customers.

i think the easiest thing for me would be to stay with rhino, since i'm familiar with it, and add either moi or plasticity to get decent filleting. the advanced surface stuff isn't necessarily something i would have to have. i spent a few months trying to make a traditional fixed pitch aircraft propeller (Sopwith Camel) in rhino. i constantly ran into bugs/problems, until i finally got a workflow that gave reasonable results. in that case, early on, more advanced surfacing methods might have helped. hard to say for sure though.

attached, are pics of the traditional fixed pitch aircraft propeller that i created in rhino 5. getting the transitions between the blades and hub to match how they are actually made was the challenge. even after months of banging on rhino, the method i eventually found is still limited by fillet size and doesn't always work. it depends on a lot of things. it's just so buggy and frustrating. i should mention the method i eventually found was based on rhino not letting me do anything else. so i just kept running into problem after problem, until i found at least one way to progress. so it wasn't a method i created by some logical reason.

in your video, where you were having problems making certain surfaces, i run into that situation sometimes too. in most of your video, you were doing things i didn't even know about. i am always working from fixed points that i import. so i never knew about just moving lines around and having surfaces follow them. that looks like an enjoyable way to work. i just don't have that freedom, unfortunately. i also have to be able to export step files that will import into netgen. that is where moi had problems. rhino doesn't have that problem, for some reason. i haven't tested plasticity yet. just been following it's dev.

in the part of your video, where you couldn't get extended surfaces. i have had some success with that, but it's for short distances. when the distance grows, then things go crazy. it's the same with splines too. it's nice that plasticity doesn't seem to have that problem.

the new moi acis fillet is an exciting upgrade for me. so i'm curious to see how that goes. rhino always fails or limits the size of the fillets i can do. i eventually found fillet surface works a little better than fillet edge. but they are both problematic.

i was reading the history of rhino, an interview with michael, and a video interview of bob mcneel. bob flat out said, with no qualms, that he ignores user requests for years and only does stuff that will ensure he's making money and keeping the lifestyle he is accustom to. so fits perfectly with what i've seen out of rhino. high prices, very slow dev, and ignored users. just a few weeks ago, they fixed a bug reported 10 years ago. michael's interview was a lot better. he says he likes listening to users and finding solutions to their underlying issues. which you can clearly see from moi's dev history. michael also said something interesting that i see all the time. users always ask for mutually exclusive stuff. some are adamant they need some feature while other users are adamant they don't want it. so it's not possible to listen to every user all of the time. thus, trying to fix the underlying issues is the best path. makes total sense. michael also stated his goal was to provide easy to use, affordable software, for an under served community. you can clearly see that he's made good on that as well.

i think, right now, the best thing for me to do would be make the basics in rhino, then import that to moi or plasticity, and do the filleting. if using moi, i would have to export back to rhino (since i need a step file that works with netgen). plasticity may not have that problem. so i could go rhino, to plasticity, to step, then into netgen. but all the extra software because rhino's kernel sucks. they've had forever to develop it. it truly seems hopeless at this point. i have to laugh, every time i read on their forum, when they say well kernel dev is hard, it takes time, be patient. christ, i'm retired now, have been for 15 years. plus all the years of working. they require so much patience that you have to wait until your dead before it works right. this is where plasticity really excels the most. he did all that in a year.

the kernel history is interesting too. acis and parasolid both came from the same group of british devs. all the nurbs kernels came from the same group of, i believe, canadian devs. all the kernel dev companies have been bought and sold many times. so they all took different dev paths. but there are basically two types created by two different teams. it's clear that the nurbs kernels are inadequate and at the pace they make improvements, it's not good. so the real battle is between acis and parasolid. they have progressed well too. i'm not sure which is best. the plasticity dev has a video where he says parasolid is superior. i think either one is better than any of the nurbs kernels though. the plasticity dev had the right idea. just find out which is the best kernel and use it. don't do what rhino did. by an old kernel and claim to be improving it, but not mention it's going to take 100 years. i mean really, wtf. michael has an interesting approach. combining a nurbs kernel with acis. he's also using what appears to be the best of the nurbs kernels. integrityware, fairly recently, added a C# version of the kernel. that could be something that helps improve things too. not really sure.

so all that rant is about your last big point in your video. the killer features you want in moi are all because of the crappy nurbs kernel. plasticity has what you want because of the superior parasolid kernel. however, you don't like some of the things it's missing. those are things the nurbs kernel can do. so michael's dual kernel approach might give you everything you want, one can hope. interestingly, some cad programs use the parasolid and acis kernels, in the same product.

well, anything is better than waiting on rhino to wake up. bob's too busy enjoying his grand lifestyle, apparently. at least he's modest, and trying to hide it, lol. nah, let's just rub it in. in the end of his interview, his advise to students was to follow the money. what a guy. thank god the entire world isn't like him.

anthony

EDITED: 7 Feb 2024 by PROP_DESIGN

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 From:  Barry-H
11089.6 In reply to 11089.1 
Hi zarkow,
very interesting video especially the patch issue.
It got me thinking if Freecad could do it.
Found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFKmaPaFPXc
So created sample surfaces in Moi and exported as step file.
Opened in Freecad and using the surface workbench to created the patch shown in photo.
So this offers another option for Moi users to create in Moi and if stuck export and patch in Freecad.
Hopefully Michael will add a similar patch tool in the future.
Anyway thanks for the video's
Cheers
Barry



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 From:  Anthony (PROP_DESIGN)
11089.7 In reply to 11089.6 
that's amazing. open source is really improving. that's great for everyone.
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 From:  pafurijaz
11089.8 
I don't think this can be considered a comparison, here in Moi3D aren't used the surfacing tools but a workflow that takes advantage of the subdivision surfaces. 
For comparison you should use Nurbs curves not the polygons you convert to Nurbs patches.
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 From:  Anthony (PROP_DESIGN)
11089.9 In reply to 11089.8 
that was zarkow's work around because moi doesn't do n-sided patches. he did do it with surfaces in plasticity. his main end points, about 'killer features', were about this.

if you want an all nurbs comparison between the two it would have to be a lot simpler. i believe that's his whole point. plasticity just hit version 1.1. so he's progressing very fast compared to rhino and moi dev history.
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 From:  pafurijaz
11089.10 In reply to 11089.9 
Thanks Anthony, however, there is one thing to say, even the development of Moi3D Rhinoceros are not comparable, because actually Plasticity uses a ready-made Geometric Kernel in which everything is already ready, developed for more than 40 years if we consider Romolus (1978), while Moi3D and Rhino have their own Kernel developed internally, by very few people.

The best minds of recent years have been employed to develop Parasolid and this is a very complicated gap to fill.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasolid

However, the developer was good at exploiting all this, not to mention the language used with which Plasticity is made, Tscript a super set of javascript instructions, another point that makes development faster, being a less complex language than C/C++

Greetings
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 From:  KENMO
11089.11 In reply to 11089.10 
I've tried the Plasticity trial and I much prefer Moi 3D. Plasticity has nothing like Moi 3D's network tool. There simply are more tools in Moi 3D. The only thing I like about Plasticity is it's filet and thicken commands. Plasticity also seems to be a lighter application. I also find it frustrating Plasticity only has right, back and top views, no left, front or bottom unlike Moi 3D.
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 From:  PaQ
11089.12 In reply to 11089.11 
They are many things in Plasticity that are somehow hidden, the search command can maybe help you to re-assign navigation shortcut.
Parasolid filleting is indeed impressive ... but ... is it really the right place to discuss about it ? :S

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 From:  WN
11089.13 In reply to 11089.11 
Hi KENMO.

Switching the view is linked to buttons 1, 3, 7 on the numeric keypad.
To view the opposite view, add ctrl to them.
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 From:  Death
11089.14 In reply to 11089.13 
Still need to switch though, aggravating...

Also can't click on most screen icons, or change dimensions via input AFTER the object is created.

Plasticity is a keyboard shortcut mess that makes modeling frustrating.

In MoI, I sit back and use the keyboard almost never, way better creative flow...
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 From:  PaQ
11089.15 In reply to 11089.14 
Yes at least MoI let you have both, very readable icons + text for newcomers, and the ability to full drive it with shortcut for more advance users. I'm more of a keyboard shortcut guy, so I don't have that much trouble to adapt.

What I miss really is the fact that Moi can run snippet code as shortcut, so you can add nice functionality with a single key, that can be contextual, or act like toggle function with boolean state etc. It's actually very advance for a non keyboard-centric application :O)

I think the quad view was one of the first question/FR I made indeed, because condemn the numerical keyboard for navigation view change is such a waste of keys. (I only use quad view in MoI as transitional state to "mouse over maximize" an other view). At the end I use the alt + middle click combo to change view orientation, no ideal but better than having 6 shortcuts. The sad thing is that even remapped, the numerical keyboard can't be use directly to type numeric value, you still have to type stuff like "D" (distance) + value ...

Plasticity is full of those odd controls, very irritating ... you often read "That's how it works in Blender". So after a while I gave up and just deal with it.
One of the last update prevent user to start multi session ... like ... wtf. I was hopping I could use multi session to deal with the lack object/group management, and for example copy paste model parts to focus on ( (even tho the clipboard copy dind't really worked) ... but nope. I'm just hoping it's not to deal with the "auto load last model" behaviour, because that's one the default feature that is coming from an other planet.

Other stuff like adding a sphere auto activate the boolean operation in subtraction mode ... apparently that's how it works in Shapr ? Have hard time to digest that one :P

Now I have to say that despite all that rough corners, the library used is so permissive that it's fun to use, and really fast (less time used to *fix* stuffs). I still have hard time to integrate some of the direct modelling functionality, because MoI did wired my brain, and I kinda forget that "freedom". But parasolid really shine for create insane large fillets, it's disgusting :P. However using Plasticity for surfacing is really not a good idea for now, even if the 2 viable tools (patch and loft) can help here and there.

EDITED: 13 May 2023 by PAQ

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 From:  BurrMan
11089.16 
“”””” Plasticity vs MoI””””””

Here’s my take.

Michael is a brilliant graphics student who created rhino as an enthusiastic yoot…

He created that behemoth long ago and has a compounded experience level with his entire dev-sales-lifecycle-market (insert your “what it’s really about” here)

He decided to move out on his own and “avoid all the pitfalls i created” with rhino, in his new “moment of inspiration”

He is currently succeeding!!

Nick is an intelligent kid. Full of enthusiasm. He decided to create his own product and chose some bad ass tools to do it.

It is currently in it’s infancy and has attracted users from enthusiast to advanced.

The comparison will come in 15 years when Nick can look back and ponder “rats… i should have not done that”. His product will be owned by someone else and his new project will be named “Aha!!3d”

Then 12 years into that Aha!!3d can be compared to MoI3D version 4…..

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 From:  pafurijaz
11089.17 
I don't like this type of post at all, also because we often talk superficially, without taking many factors into account, I have both applications and I use both as well as using FreeCAD, Blender and other various tools such as gCAD3d and FreeShip, each software has its strengths and its shortcomings, in Moi3D often, people do not know how to use it, because they do not know the basics of CAD, and this also happens with Plasticity, FreeCAD and Blender, I prefer this because it has this, or saying this sucks because it doesn't have this, is pretty corny.

Often there is the risk of making assessments on first impressions that are only the result of ignorance, and for this reason I suggest everyone to avoid making other posts with this type of topic because it is easy to fall into disputes that make no sense especially here on the Moi3D forum , I also have my favorite things in Plasticity, but Moi3D is an application that I can't do without for endless reasons, like for Blender and FreeCAD etc..
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 From:  PaQ
11089.18 In reply to 11089.17 
I agree, that's also why I took my time to actually learn and use Plasticity for a couple of weeks/months to have a better idea, as you can't really make your mind doodle 2 hours in it.

Talking about using 'both' I would so much love a clipboard copy functionality between the 2 softwares. I know there is hack somewhere that is using a temp file format, but it rely on a .stp and I hate that format, there is often stuff breaking during the "translation".
(.3dm would be a much better option, but Plasticity can only read it, not write :( )
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 From:  Marbleman
11089.19 In reply to 11089.16 
Nicely put Burrman!

I agree entirely with your viewpoint....
www.jameselliott.co.uk
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 From:  Death
11089.20 In reply to 11089.19 
Ditto!

Plus: pafurijaz

Who made you judge and jury? Don't partake if you don't like it, but you don't get to tell us what to think and say, sorry...

Plasticity's user interface is way too keyboard centric for me.

Once Michael updates to vers.5 with fillet problems resolved, there no reason for me to get anything else.

I can design my prototypes for 3d printing to exact scale in MoI, something that is tough to do in Plasticity.

Even worse, Plasticity displays the dimensions of a finished object, yet you can't change them via input,
making editing basically a "re-draw the object" item.

My 2 Cents worth...
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